# Committee on Committees and Rules meeting, July 8, 2024

- When: Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 10:00 AM (Chicago time)
- Where: City Council Chamber, 2nd Floor, City Hall, 121 North LaSalle Street - Chicago, IL 60602
- Status: Scheduled & Published
- Committee: [Committee on Committees and Rules](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/committee/committees-and-rules)
- Video: https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/970031837
- Transcript: [full text](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/transcripts/970031837.txt) (19,078 words, official captions)

## Meeting notes

> AI-written from the transcript. Speakers are inferred from cues in the recording, so treat names as estimates and check the video at the linked time.

The Committee on Committees and Rules heard public comment, approved its March 2024 Rule 45 report, and approved four ordinances correcting the City Council Journal of Proceedings and pamphlet copies. Most of the meeting was a debate on a substitute resolution amending the Council's Rules of Order to let Legislative Reference Bureau staff be present on the floor and advise members on rules and procedure during meetings. Sponsors said the change would give the Council its own procedural advice, while the Law Department said the Corporation Counsel is the Council's sole legal adviser under state law and the change raised legal concerns; several members questioned whether it was needed or would cause confusion. On a roll call read as 18 yeas and 24 nays, the resolution failed and was to be reported out as failed in committee.

Topics: Rules of Order, Legislative Reference Bureau, Law Department, Parliamentary procedure, Council independence, Journal corrections, Public comment

### Agenda items discussed

- [22:29](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=1349) Public comment
- [32:43](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=1963) Approval of the March 12, 2024 Rule 45 report: passed
- [33:25](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2005) Correction of the City Council Journal of Proceedings of December 13, 2023 (O2024-0008108): passed
- [33:36](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2016) Correction of City Council pamphlet copy issued April 19, 2024 (O2024-0009561): passed
- [33:54](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2034) Correction of City Council pamphlet copy issued April 19, 2024 (O2024-0009588): passed
- [34:09](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2049) Correction of special pamphlet copy issued April 24, 2024 regarding general obligation and sales tax securitization bonds (O2024-0009589): passed
- [35:40](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2140) Amendment of Council Rules of Order to allow Legislative Reference Bureau staff to advise members on rules during meetings: failed

### Alderpersons who spoke

- [Michelle A. Harris](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/8) (chair): Introduced the resolution amending the Rules of Order to let members seek counsel on rules while another member is speaking. ([35:40](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2140))
- [Brendan Reilly](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/42) (alderperson): Said the proposal to give the Council more tools dates back to the Emanuel administration and that the current administration was working against it at the last minute. ([36:14](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2174)); Said the resolution only changes Council rules so LRB lawyers can advise members during debate, and does not involve subpoena powers or a parliamentarian. ([39:10](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2350)); Moved to accept a substitute removing the LRB name change and making the rule effective on passage. ([40:31](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2431))
- [Anthony Beale](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/9) (alderperson): Called the resolution a first step toward Council independence, saying the body has relied on Law Department advice to the administration. ([42:20](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2540)); Said the Council also needs its own budget analysis office and suggested independent advice might have changed votes on the parking meters and Skyway. ([44:21](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2661)); Asked the LRB director and Law Department whether the Council has ever overridden the chair on an incorrect parliamentary ruling and whether the Law Department attends every committee meeting. ([1:37:44](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=5864))
- [Bennett R. Lawson](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/44) (alderperson): Asked to confirm that the change lets LRB staff be on the floor and that they would never give advice publicly. ([53:54](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3234))
- [Andre Vasquez Jr.](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/40) (alderperson): Asked whether there is any record of the Corporation Counsel going against a mayor's ruling. ([55:11](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3311)); Said the resolution is about future councils being a co-equal legislative branch and that concerns about members jamming up meetings do not bear out, and said he would support it. ([56:55](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3415))
- [David H. Moore](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/17) (alderperson): Asked whether each party in the state legislature has its own legal staff and how a member would get clarification when disagreeing with a ruling. ([59:01](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3541)); Said he supports the resolution and hopes it encourages earlier collaboration so differences are resolved before floor votes. ([1:01:09](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3669))
- [Leni Manaa-Hoppenworth](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/48) (alderperson): Said she would support the resolution and asked why it was a resolution rather than an ordinance. ([1:02:11](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3731)); Said the change should be treated as a structural change regardless of who is mayor and noted support from groups such as the League of Women Voters. ([1:02:39](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3759))
- [Walter R. Burnett](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/27) (alderperson): Asked for a simple explanation of what problem the resolution solves. ([1:04:02](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3842)); Said members can already talk to the LRB and that having staff on the floor advising many members at once could be more chaotic. ([1:29:51](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=5391))
- [Jason C. Ervin](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/28) (alderperson): Asked to confirm that the substitute only changed the name provisions and asked the LRB director to respond to the Law Department. ([1:20:25](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=4825)); Asked what currently prevents members from conferring with the LRB. ([1:24:47](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=5087)); Said the change does nothing that cannot already be done and would create more chaos, and that the Council should focus on issues such as weekend shootings. ([1:27:44](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=5264))
- [Pat Dowell](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/3) (alderperson): Asked to clarify that the presiding officer could decline to pause the meeting for a member to get advice. ([1:26:30](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=5190)); Said the presiding officer remains the final arbiter and a majority of 26 votes can overcome rulings, called the change unnecessary, and said she opposed it because it would create gridlock. ([1:43:47](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=6227))
- [Timothy R. Knudsen](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/43) (alderperson): Asked the LRB director whether the change would require LRB to expand its staff, and said having lawyers with different duties present tends to lead to healthier policy. ([1:41:33](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=6093))
- [Daniel La Spata](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/1) (alderperson): Said he has never experienced the LRB as political and would have valued neutral advice during confusing interrupted roll calls, and that longer meetings are not a problem for him. ([1:45:23](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=6323))
- [Chris Taliaferro](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/29) (alderperson): Asked that the committee provide a list of other legislative bodies using the method the resolution proposes. ([1:49:04](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=6544))
- [Scott Waguespack](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/32) (alderperson): Said the change does not create a conflict of interest and recalled being told by Corporation Counsel during the 2013 meter deal to get his own attorney. ([1:50:03](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=6603)); Asked the Law Department whether its deliberative process on settlements is discussed on the Council floor. ([2:10:37](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=7837))
- [Byron Sigcho-López](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/25) (alderperson): Asked to confirm that the resolution concerns only parliamentary rulings during Council meetings, not independent legal counsel on legislation. ([1:54:18](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=6858)); Said he supports independent counsel in principle but was concerned that implementation as written could create more chaos and be used to derail agendas. ([1:58:49](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=7129))
- [Carlos Ramírez-Rosa](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/former/ramirez-rosa) (alderperson): Said he supports more resources for the LRB but that the substitute gave him pause. ([2:01:15](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=7275)); Asked how it would work if several members sought LRB advice at once and whether members could receive conflicting interpretations. ([2:02:11](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=7331)); Asked the Law Department whether conflicting advice read into the record could be used against the city in lawsuits. ([2:06:20](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=7580))

### Exchanges between members

- [42:07](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=2527) Alderperson Brendan Reilly deferred to co-sponsor Alderperson Anthony Beale.
- [1:02:00](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3720) Alderperson David H. Moore thanked Alderpersons Beale and Reilly for bringing the resolution.
- [1:02:00](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3720) Alderperson David H. Moore thanked Alderpersons Beale and Reilly for bringing the resolution.
- [1:02:47](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3767) Alderperson Leni Manaa-Hoppenworth echoed Alderperson David H. Moore point that the change could encourage conversations before meetings.
- [1:04:21](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=3861) Alderperson Brendan Reilly answered Alderperson Walter R. Burnett question about what the resolution solves.
- [1:07:27](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=4047) Alderperson Brendan Reilly cited Alderperson Andre Vasquez Jr. point that the change benefits future councils.
- [1:33:10](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=5590) Alderperson Brendan Reilly responded to Alderperson Walter R. Burnett concerns, saying the changes are not massive.
- [1:35:48](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=5748) Alderperson Brendan Reilly referred to Alderperson Anthony Beale point about the parking meters.
- [1:59:01](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=7141) Alderperson Byron Sigcho-López said he followed Alderperson Pat Dowell concern about the rules being used for different agendas.
- [2:14:05](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=8045) Alderperson Brendan Reilly said that, like Alderperson Carlos Ramírez-Rosa, he would like to add resources to the LRB.
- [2:17:12](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D?t=8232) Alderperson Anthony Beale said he agreed totally with Alderperson Brendan Reilly.

## Documents

- [Summary](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/clerk/meetingattachmentspublic/5d2b0247-5ea6-43c1-a990-467b0f1088de.pdf)
- [Notice](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/clerk/meetingattachmentspublic/149ad7e5-fc04-4abc-8c33-11e3d6ee7112.pdf)
- [Agenda](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/clerk/meetingattachmentspublic/bbc87907-b933-4e57-8f69-132139aa6741.pdf)

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Source: https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/5E0C1CA3-AB37-EF11-8409-001DD809B40D · Chicago Politics, an independent, nonpartisan tracker of the Chicago City Council. Guide for agents: https://www.chicagopolitics.org/llms.txt