# Joint Committee: Public Safety; Police and Fire meeting, September 26, 2024

- When: Thu, Sep 26, 2024, 12:30 PM (Chicago time)
- Where: City Council Chamber, 2nd Floor, City Hall, 121 North LaSalle Street - Chicago, IL 60602
- Status: Scheduled & Published
- Video: https://vimeo.com/showcase/8928494/video/1010762030
- Transcript: [full text](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/transcripts/1010762030.txt) (39,986 words, official captions)

## Meeting notes

> AI-written from the transcript. Speakers are inferred from cues in the recording, so treat names as estimates and check the video at the linked time.

The joint meeting of the Committee on Public Safety and the Committee on Police and Fire held a subject-matter hearing with no votes on legislation. After six public commenters, the Deputy Inspector General for Public Safety presented the Office of Inspector General's 2023 Public Safety annual report, covering audits of CPD false-report and misconduct-reporting rules, search warrants, 911 response-time data, recommendations to reopen disciplinary investigations, and data dashboards, and members asked about district staffing, COPA case closures, use of force, sexual misconduct cases and disability leave. The second part focused on ShotSpotter, which had recently been discontinued: the Inspector General summarized her office's 2021 findings and data-quality limits, a CPD data analyst described how alerts were used in district strategic decision support centers, a University of Chicago Crime Lab researcher presented an analysis estimating a possible reduction in shooting deaths with stated statistical uncertainty, and a University of Chicago sociologist argued the money could be better spent elsewhere. Members expressed differing views on ShotSpotter's value and requested follow-up data, including CAPS meeting records from CPD, and the meeting was adjourned.

Topics: OIG Public Safety annual report, ShotSpotter, Police staffing by district, 911 response time data, COPA investigations, Use of force, CAPS community meetings, Strategic decision support centers

### Agenda items discussed

- [16:37](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=997) Public comment: discussed
- [33:43](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=2023) Office of Inspector General 2023 Public Safety section annual report: discussed
- [1:54:22](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=6862) Subject-matter hearing on ShotSpotter with the Inspector General, CPD and University of Chicago researchers: discussed

### Alderpersons who spoke

- [Brian Hopkins](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/2) (chair): Asked how the Inspector General would oversee the city's care response teams if they no longer include police or fire personnel. ([1:00:52](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=3652)); Said recent data show ShotSpotter alerts are gunfire about 99% of the time and argued alerts direct responders more precisely than many 911 calls. ([2:12:11](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=7931)); Asked the CPD analyst how ShotSpotter data was used analytically to inform policing strategies beyond dispatching cars. ([2:37:10](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=9430))
- [Nicholas Sposato](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/38) (alderperson): Said disparities in stops reflect officer concentration, comparing the large 16th District with far fewer officers per square mile to the smaller 15th District, and asked the OIG to examine this. ([1:03:31](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=3811))
- [Anthony V. Napolitano](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/41) (alderperson): Asked that the staffing-per-district analysis be done for the entire city, noting the 17th and 24th Districts face similar issues. ([1:04:39](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=3879))
- [Raymond A. Lopez](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/15) (alderperson): Asked the OIG to explain CPD's cited manpower and technology limits on auditing 911 response data and requested the specific recommendations ahead of budget hearings. ([1:05:52](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=3952)); Asked whether the gang database is still in use and whether the City Council can legislate on it, and whether police board consistency could be addressed legislatively. ([1:09:10](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=4150)); Asked whether the drop of about 2,000 sworn officers since 2019 reflects vacant budgeted positions and whether the staffing dashboard shows seniority by watch. ([1:13:28](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=4408))
- [Gregory I. Mitchell](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/7) (alderperson): Asked what the term over-policing means, saying residents in his area say they are not policed enough. ([1:15:46](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=4546)); Asked about the delay between 911 dispatch and ShotSpotter alerts and said technology that shortens response time saves lives. ([3:05:38](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=11138)); Said the strategic decision support center in his district, with cameras and ShotSpotter, has helped officers make arrests in real time. ([3:07:39](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=11259))
- [Peter Chico](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/10) (alderperson): Asked whether the cases OIG recommended reopening had anything in common. ([1:17:30](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=4650)); Asked the CPD analyst how district intelligence officers and support center staff use ShotSpotter data to deploy tactical teams and inform CompStat and CAPS meetings. ([2:49:18](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=10158))
- [Jessica L. Fuentes](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/26) (alderperson): Asked what criteria COPA uses for administrative closures and why OIG recommended reopening certain cases. ([1:18:55](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=4735)); Cited a 2017 mayoral press statement describing ShotSpotter as a crime-predicting technology to dispute that its original purpose was being mischaracterized. ([2:33:17](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=9197)); Asked CPD about ShotSpotter accuracy, whether alerts should go to fire and EMS, police-involved shootings, longest response times and how dead-end responses are coded. ([2:44:48](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=9888))
- [Byron Sigcho-López](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/25) (alderperson): Raised concern about COPA declining OIG recommendations to reopen investigations and asked what legislative changes could strengthen the process. ([1:21:06](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=4866)); Raised concerns about false testimony and officers with extremist group associations remaining on the force and urged follow-up on OIG recommendations. ([1:26:37](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=5197))
- [William E. Hall](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/6) (alderperson): Asked about use-of-force incidents involving Black subjects and whether data exist on the outcomes for the people involved. ([1:27:41](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=5261)); Asked whether the city tracks money paid out for improper use of force. ([1:36:47](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=5807)); Confirmed with the Inspector General that by ShotSpotter's data only 7 of 143 aid renderings in 2024 had no accompanying 911 call, and asked what the tool's current purpose is. ([2:01:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=7305))
- [David H. Moore](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/17) (alderperson): Asked detailed questions about how many of 53 sexual misconduct cases were sustained and the discipline imposed. ([1:29:54](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=5394)); Asked whether OIG compares investigatory stops with suspect descriptions in 911 calls rather than only with population share. ([1:50:20](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=6620)); Said ShotSpotter responses can prevent retaliation in ways data do not capture and cited 91 lives aided without a 911 call over about 18 months. ([2:26:10](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=8770))
- [Jason C. Ervin](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/28) (alderperson): Asked about OIG work on police and fire medical roll use, citing rising disability costs and pension obligations. ([1:38:32](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=5912)); Asked whether calls for service are analyzed by priority level alongside district staffing. ([1:42:24](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=6144)); Asked about the status of the required CPD staffing study and urged OIG to evaluate it. ([1:45:43](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=6343))
- [Ronnie L. Mosley](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/21) (alderperson): Asked whether ShotSpotter's pairing with pod cameras and license plate readers had been analyzed, given the city's no-chase policy. ([2:04:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=7485))
- [Nicole T. Lee](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/11) (alderperson): Asked how data-quality gaps affected analysis of ShotSpotter's effectiveness. ([2:05:25](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=7525)); Said correlating 911 calls with ShotSpotter alerts is unreliable because of human data-entry gaps. ([2:07:44](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=7664)); Agreed that policy decisions need more room for statistical uncertainty than science and thanked the Crime Lab for its analysis. ([3:32:24](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=12744))
- [Leni Manaa-Hoppenworth](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/48) (alderperson): Described her ward's public safety needs and asked about ShotSpotter's effect on officer behavior, response times, dead-end deployments and how success will be measured. ([2:14:23](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=8063)); Asked whether the University of Chicago can be considered independent on this topic and about the one-in-four chance its findings are noise. ([3:28:10](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=12490)); Described gun violence in her ward, supported license plate readers and mental health centers, and asked the sociologist to explain root causes. ([4:09:00](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=14940))
- [Andre Vasquez Jr.](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/40) (alderperson): Said different questions about ShotSpotter have produced different answers and asked whether OIG examined other cities' procurement and studies. ([2:23:10](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=8590))
- [Walter R. Burnett](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/27) (alderperson): Asked the sociologist what the money should be spent on instead of ShotSpotter. ([3:36:53](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=13013)); Said residents of high-violence neighborhoods often do not call police and that the city needs every available tool rather than one or the other. ([3:40:50](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=13250))

### Exchanges between members

- [1:04:39](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=3879) Napolitano asked that Sposato's district staffing question be examined across the whole city.
- [1:13:07](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=4387) Lopez said he agreed with colleagues who questioned stops and district size.
- [1:15:46](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=4546) Mitchell asked Lopez what he meant by the term over-policing.
- [1:16:16](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=4576) Lopez explained to Mitchell how stop counts compare with district population and staffing.
- [2:05:25](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=7525) Lee picked up on Hall's questions and said correlating 911 calls with ShotSpotter alerts is unreliable.
- [2:23:10](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=8590) Vasquez thanked the chair for holding the hearing.
- [2:33:17](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=9197) Fuentes responded to Lopez's remarks by citing a 2017 mayoral statement describing ShotSpotter as crime-predicting technology.
- [2:34:43](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=9283) The chair told Fuentes that line of questioning was better directed to the CPD witness than the Inspector General.
- [2:39:05](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=9545) Ervin referenced Fuentes's point about the original rationale for acquiring ShotSpotter in questioning CPD.
- [3:00:15](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=10815) The chair thanked Lopez and said the CAPS information would be provided to the joint committee.
- [3:05:26](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=11126) Mitchell said Moore had raised some of the same concerns he had.
- [3:08:36](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=11316) The chair told Mitchell his point about support centers was valid.
- [3:48:24](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=13704) The chair thanked Burnett and recognized Lee.
- [3:54:08](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=14048) The chair asked Lee whether she was finished before recognizing Moore's point of information.
- [3:59:54](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=14394) Moore said his point about lived experience was what Burnett had been getting at.
- [3:57:30](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=14250) The chair thanked Lee as the hearing approached its fourth hour.
- [4:08:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0?t=14925) The chair asked Manaa-Hoppenworth whether she had a question before her motion to adjourn.

## Documents

- [Agenda](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/clerk/meetingattachmentspublic/a330cca4-ad94-40bf-b3be-4e095167eb9b.pdf)
- [Notice](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/clerk/meetingattachmentspublic/32187f05-b3d0-4fe0-ba33-ccda4af1ecd6.pdf)
- [Summary](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/clerk/meetingattachmentspublic/abd397a9-ab19-434c-a569-ee13e6969806.pdf)

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Source: https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/2C07BB7A-976F-EF11-A671-001DD8306DF0 · Chicago Politics, an independent, nonpartisan tracker of the Chicago City Council. Guide for agents: https://www.chicagopolitics.org/llms.txt