# Committee on Police and Fire meeting, April 1, 2024

- When: Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 10:00 AM (Chicago time)
- Where: City Council Chamber, 2nd Floor, City Hall, 121 North LaSalle Street - Chicago, IL 60602
- Status: Scheduled & Published
- Committee: [Committee on Police and Fire](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/committee/police-and-fire)
- Video: https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/928476128
- Transcript: [full text](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/transcripts/928476128.txt) (26,564 words, official captions)

## Meeting notes

> AI-written from the transcript. Speakers are inferred from cues in the recording, so treat names as estimates and check the video at the linked time.

The Committee on Police and Fire heard public comment, approved its Rule 45 report, and took up two items. The committee passed a substitute ordinance raising the mandatory retirement age for Chicago police officers to 65, after the fire department provisions were removed at the department's and union's request; members raised questions about the retroactive effective date and the missing financial analysis, and the language was amended and later reconsidered so the substitute reads "be it ordained." The committee then discussed at length a substitute order sponsored by Alderperson David H. Moore calling on the mayor to let wards choose whether to keep ShotSpotter, requiring the Police Department to collect and post data on the technology, and requiring advance notice to the City Council before removal. A CPD data official answered questions on alerts without 911 calls, evidence recovered and aid rendered, and the order passed on a voice vote.

Topics: ShotSpotter, gunshot detection technology, police retirement age, police pensions, CPD data collection, 911 response, public comment

### Agenda items discussed

- [44:06](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2646) Approval of the Rule 45 report from the March 18, 2024 meeting: passed
- [44:39](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2679) Substitute ordinance amending Municipal Code section 2-152-410 to modify the mandatory retirement age for police officers: passed
- [1:02:27](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3747) Substitute order calling on Mayor Brandon Johnson to remedy by ward choice whether to remove SoundThinking/ShotSpotter technology, with data collection and advance notification to affected wards: passed
- [2:29:13](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=8953) Reconsideration of the police retirement age substitute ordinance to change "be it ordered" to "be it ordained"; substitute as amended passed: passed

### Alderpersons who spoke

- [Chris Taliaferro](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/29) (chair): As chief sponsor, explained that the fire department provisions were dropped at the request of the fire department and union, while CPD and the FOP supported raising the police retirement age. ([45:54](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2754)); Said the ordinance would be retroactive to December 31, 2023, and that how it affects retired officers returning could be discussed with HR and the Law Department. ([47:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2865)); Said he did not know whether actuarial work was done but argued that retaining officers who wish to stay helps the pension system amid staffing shortages. ([50:30](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3030))
- [Lamont J. Robinson](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/4) (alderperson): Requested more information from CPD and asked that ShotSpotter's company appear to explain how the technology could be advanced so officers do not go into situations blindly. ([1:26:00](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5160))
- [Anthony V. Napolitano](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/41) (alderperson): Commended the chair for how the retirement age ordinance was developed with input from both departments. ([47:00](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2820)); Asked the CPD witness to confirm that about 60% of ShotSpotter detections have no corresponding 911 call and whether data shows those were bona fide shootings. ([1:16:30](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=4590))
- [Nicholas Sposato](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/38) (alderperson): Asked when the retirement age ordinance takes effect and whether officers forced to retire after December 31, 2023 could return. ([47:39](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2859)); Said he supports ShotSpotter as a tool to solve crime and save lives, said it may stop retaliation, and suggested the fire department be included in the conversation. ([1:44:57](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6297)); Said the technology stops retaliatory crime by getting police to the scene. ([2:07:10](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7630))
- [Jason C. Ervin](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/28) (alderperson): Asked what changed between the original and substitute retirement age ordinance. ([49:09](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2949)); Asked about the financial implications for the city and pension fund and said he understood actuarial work was to be done. ([49:54](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2994)); Said he was unsure the committee should move forward with a retroactive date without a clear financial analysis. ([52:00](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3120))
- [Nicole T. Lee](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/11) (alderperson): Said she has constituents affected by the police retirement age and supported the substitute that reflects the fire department's concerns. ([54:36](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3276)); Described a case where ShotSpotter brought police and EMTs to a gravely injured carjacking victim when no 911 call was made, and said the technology is an important tool though not the only solution. ([2:19:15](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=8355))
- [Jeanette B. Taylor](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/20) (alderperson): Agreed with Alderperson Jason C. Ervin that the committee should have information on the cost of the retirement age change. ([55:12](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3312)); Said ShotSpotter has sent police to her area for expressway backfire and that money should go to something with clear data. ([1:43:03](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6183)); Said the city should ask why people do not feel safe enough to call police and said spending on ShotSpotter and police has not made communities safer. ([1:43:36](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6216))
- [Raymond A. Lopez](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/15) (alderperson): Asked whether the section requiring retirement at a single age needs to be bifurcated or amended now that police and fire have different retirement ages. ([55:48](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3348)); Said gunshot detection is not a crime-stopping tool but a way to respond when residents do not call 911, and disputed arguments that the technology is racist. ([1:27:51](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5271)); Described a shooting victim in Pilsen who lay on a curb for an hour with no 911 call, saying that shows the value of the $8 million contract. ([1:29:15](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5355))
- [Anthony Beale](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/9) (alderperson): Suggested the committee accept the amendment and vote, with the language clarified by the Law Department afterward. ([59:48](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3588)); Asked the CPD witness what ShotSpotter data is not being collected or reported and whether he can request data both for and against the technology. ([1:09:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=4185)); Asked how many weekend shootings had no 911 call and the average delay of 911 calls compared with ShotSpotter alerts. ([1:12:21](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=4341))
- [Derrick G. Curtis](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/18) (alderperson): Asked whether officers who retired after maxing out could return under the retroactive date. ([1:00:51](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3651)); Asked the CPD witness why access to ShotSpotter data differs by level within the department. ([1:58:24](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7104)); Asked whether ShotSpotter would be considered a first responder where no 911 call is made. ([2:06:18](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7578))
- [David H. Moore](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/17) (alderperson): Said the administration made a unilateral decision to end ShotSpotter despite the current and former superintendents calling it a necessary tool, and that wards should be able to choose. ([1:04:21](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3861)); Explained the order asks CPD to collect data on ShotSpotter accuracy, alerts without 911 calls, aid rendered, response times, shell casings, weapons and arrests, and to post it on a city portal. ([1:05:40](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3940)); Said he was willing to amend the order so the monthly report is produced through the Inspector General. ([1:08:00](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=4080))
- [Monique L. Scott](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/24) (alderperson): Read recent notifications of shootings in her area where ShotSpotter alerted and no 911 call was made, and said she supports ShotSpotter. ([1:17:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=4665)); Said her communities face violence due to lack of investment and that decisions are being made without the council's authority. ([1:19:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=4785)); Raised concern that officers would be pulled downtown during the DNC, leaving West and South Side communities with fewer resources. ([1:20:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=4845))
- [Pat Dowell](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/3) (alderperson): Said she supports ShotSpotter and described a shooting on State Street where police responded only because of an alert. ([1:35:23](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5723)); Asked the CPD witness about staffing for data collection and which of the requested data items are new. ([1:36:30](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5790)); Asked Alderperson David H. Moore to allow CPD to suggest additional data elements and asked CPD to consider tracking retaliation shootings. ([1:38:36](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5916))
- [Ronnie L. Mosley](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/21) (alderperson): Added his support and asked how ShotSpotter data is shared with violence interruption groups so they can use it in outreach. ([1:50:18](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6618))
- [Felix Cardona Jr.](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/31) (alderperson): Said he supports the order and asked how many police districts and wards use ShotSpotter and whether it could be added in districts without it. ([1:51:39](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6699))
- [Leni Manaa-Hoppenworth](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/48) (alderperson): Said the council has a responsibility to taxpayers and asked the CPD witness what the technology does. ([1:59:51](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7191)); Asked whether CPD tracks false arrests or accusations related to ShotSpotter and cited a Cook County State's Attorney report on few arrests. ([2:01:06](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7266)); Asked that future hearings include the MacArthur Justice Center and the State's Attorney's office along with CPD and ShotSpotter. ([2:04:51](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7491))
- [Gilbert Villegas](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/36) (alderperson): Said the superintendent has said he needs gunshot detection technology and that the council should trust the superintendent's subject-matter expertise on public safety tools. ([2:08:24](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7704))
- [Byron Sigcho-López](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/25) (alderperson): Said decisions should be based on evidence and data and asked whether the Inspector General's report on ShotSpotter had been reviewed. ([2:11:00](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7860)); Recommended working with the Inspector General to review the data as the conversation continues. ([2:12:06](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7926))
- [Andre Vasquez Jr.](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/40) (alderperson): Said the city has not articulated what it wants from any gunshot detection software and should define metrics and issue a real RFP. ([2:12:57](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7977)); Said he does not believe ShotSpotter prevents crime or raises clearance rates but sees value in first response to shootings. ([2:14:06](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=8046)); Asked whether alerts are tied to evidence recovered and convictions, and requested data linking alerts to cases. ([2:14:51](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=8091))
- [Samantha Nugent](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/39) (alderperson): Said she will support the order, saying ShotSpotter alerts lead to life-saving care and benefit North Side wards through triangulation even where sensors are in other districts. ([2:18:18](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=8298))
- [Peter Chico](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/ward/10) (alderperson): Drawing on his experience as a patrol and intelligence officer, said ShotSpotter data combined with other technology helps direct officers and save lives, and said he strongly supports it. ([2:20:42](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=8442))

### Exchanges between members

- [47:00](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2820) Alderperson Anthony V. Napolitano commended the chair for the process used to develop the retirement age ordinance.
- [47:39](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2859) Alderperson Nicholas Sposato asked the chair about the ordinance's effective date and retired officers returning.
- [49:09](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=2949) Alderperson Jason C. Ervin asked the chair about changes in the substitute and its financial implications.
- [55:12](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3312) Alderperson Jeanette B. Taylor said she agreed with Alderperson Jason C. Ervin about needing cost information.
- [55:48](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3348) Alderperson Raymond A. Lopez asked the chair whether a section of the ordinance needed to be bifurcated.
- [59:48](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3588) Alderperson Anthony Beale suggested the chair accept the amendment and clarify language with the Law Department later.
- [1:00:51](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=3651) Alderperson Derrick G. Curtis asked the chair whether retired officers could return under the retroactive date.
- [1:15:03](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=4503) Alderperson Anthony Beale told the chair he believed the ShotSpotter contract extension was not valid.
- [1:22:21](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=4941) The chair told Alderperson Monique L. Scott he shared her concerns about recent shootings without 911 calls.
- [1:25:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5145) Vice Chair Lamont J. Robinson thanked Alderperson Monique L. Scott for her remarks.
- [1:33:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5625) The chair responded to Alderperson Raymond A. Lopez that the witness was invited late and data requests should go through the chair.
- [1:35:09](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5709) Alderperson Pat Dowell thanked Alderperson David H. Moore for bringing the order forward.
- [1:38:39](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=5919) Alderperson Pat Dowell asked Alderperson David H. Moore to give CPD an opportunity to suggest additional data elements.
- [1:42:51](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6171) Alderperson Jeanette B. Taylor said Alderperson David H. Moore was right that wards should have a say, while arguing the item should be held.
- [1:45:03](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6303) Alderperson Nicholas Sposato said Alderperson Monique L. Scott comments were well said.
- [1:45:03](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6303) Alderperson Nicholas Sposato said Alderperson Raymond A. Lopez comments were well said.
- [1:45:12](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6312) Alderperson Nicholas Sposato asked his colleague whether people not calling 911 shows the need for the technology, responding to Alderperson Jeanette B. Taylor point.
- [1:50:01](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=6601) Alderperson Ronnie L. Mosley thanked his colleague from the 17th Ward for bringing the order forward.
- [1:58:12](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7092) Alderperson Derrick G. Curtis thanked Alderperson David H. Moore for bringing the order forward.
- [1:59:45](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/meeting/19639A54-AEEB-EE11-904C-001DD806E058?t=7185) Alderperson Leni Manaa-Hoppenworth thanked her colleague for bringing the order forward.

## Documents

- [Summary](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/clerk/meetingattachmentspublic/56882176-42b2-49ca-9f58-f3dd5c575dcc.pdf)
- [Agenda](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/clerk/meetingattachmentspublic/3acc9eec-3bff-4e4c-a48a-d8ef59e6af89.pdf)
- [Notice](https://www.chicagopolitics.org/files/clerk/meetingattachmentspublic/3ad0aaac-1f60-43fa-a2b3-9e2b39ae61bf.pdf)

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