At least maybe access. Yeah.
we're all kind of just saying like
We're all kind of just saying like kind of Snuggie kind of
like it's a Friday it's snow.
like it's a Friday. It's snowing.
your kicks
Your kicks. Oh, thank you custom.
right after I gotta
Right after I got elected my daughters.
tops of
You throw it?
You throw it out?
Okay, I think we are.
Okay, I think we are good to go. Um.
Okay, I think we are good to go. Um, thank you all for
coming this morning.
Is this a little better?
Is this a little better great. Thank you. Um
the committee on ethics and government oversight will now
come to order.
come to order we have 1 item on today's agenda a subject
matter hear.
matter hearing regarding the office of Inspector. General's
quarterly report.
quarterly report for the fourth quarter of 2023. We will
begin with a roll call to establish Quorum. Please know
that you are yes or present response will be deemed a yes.
vote when this Quorum call is used for reference.
vote when this Quorum call is used for reference vote for
later items.
chairman Martin
Chairman Martin is present, uh Vice chair hat.
Chairman Martin is present, uh, Vice chair haten older
woman Lee present.
Alderman OSHA here alderwoman Taylor here alderwoman to
sabaris
Alder
alderwoman Scott Alderman Talya Ferro Alderman wag
alderwoman Scott Alderman Talya Ferro Alderman Wagman Spas
alderwoman nent
Alderman Vasquez Alderman Reilly Alderman Lawson present.
Okay, we have
Okay. We have a quorum Alder people had in.
Okay. We have a quorum Alder people had in Scott's basado
and Vasquez had requested remote participation.
and Vasquez had requested remote participation in the
meeting under rule 59 due to a qualifying.
meeting under rule 59 due to a qualifying event. Is there a
motion to allow them to attend? So moved by Alderman O'Shea
all those in favor signify by saying I all those opposed
say no in the opinion of the chair the eyes have it older
people had in.
people had in Scotts bazo and Basquez are allowed to attend
this committee meeting remotely.
this committee meeting remotely at this time. We will
public comment this period is set for 30 minutes.
public comment this period is set for 30 minutes out of
respect for everyone's Time Each speaker is limited to 3
minutes. We had 1 person who signed up for public comment,
uh, Taiwan Sims.
uh Taiwan Sims Mr. Sims. You have 3 minutes.
Thank you.
test
Good morning committee. Good morning. Good.
Good morning committee. Good morning. Good morning.
So you have a a a
individual Maria Haden who is not attending?
Individual Maria Haden who is not attending. Um, can you
all speak to me about ethics or what? Does it mean to be
sitting in this Committee of ethics?
sitting in this Committee of Ethics? What does it mean
should you all be held at a standard? That's much higher
seeing as though you all sit on this committee.
And my or or maybe I'm mistaken.
Maria hadn't sit on this committee, right?
Maria hadn't sit on this committee right of ethics.
So you all should be held to a high.
So you all should be held to a higher standard right at the
ethically.
if I'm
If I'm not mistaken.
However, Maria Haden has a ward.
However, Maria Haden has a ward in 49th where I'm from
where she is AB.
where she is abusing.
The citizens and her what?
the citizens and her what automatic power
in an unethical way
and I've been at the I've suffered at the hands of Maria
Haden out. So I came to fully address her but she's
here because I I was amazed to see that she sits on this
committee.
amazing
amazed
I've been shot purs.
I've been shot pursued.
Everything my life has been tack.
Everything my life has been taken for me. And that's why I
come and speak to you all in this committee because I want
my life back.
I think that I want Maria had an investigated because now
criminals criminals people look so I'm from that.
criminals criminals people look so I'm from that war. They
called us the more that the block that I'm from is far.
called us the more that the block that I'm from is Farwell.
I lived on in it for 30 years. My mother smoked.
I lived on in it for 30 years. My mother smoked my mother
started getting hot so we were forced into the streets.
And so I became part of that element, but not fully.
And so I became part of that element, but not fully because
I've always been just apart from it.
I've always been just apart from it, but still I lived
resided and and did all the things.
resided and and did all the things that I need to do to
survive so they called us the
survive. So they called us the Moors hell hole.
And I feel that I've been pursued.
to no end now
By now guys, they call me. They want to talk with these
people.
people know they can't do nothing with me. These people
know what type of individual I am.
know what type of individual I am, but I'm done with that
and I won't have Maria hadn't
and I won't have Maria had him pulling at it and I won't
have nobody pulling at it, but they is they've now have and
into the to the most sensitive part of my life, which is my
children. This woman is not at the coup at all.
children. This woman is not at the coup at all this woman
Champions her sensibilities.
Champions her sensibilities her sexualities over the
constituents.
constituents over the residents in Rogers Park in the 49th
W. She should
Ward. She should not sit as an alderman in any Ward.
She should.
She should not and I can't address you Maria.
She should not and I can't address you Maria had it now
anyone else. I'm sorry if you all have to feel this.
anyone else. I'm sorry if you all have to feel this, but I
can't address her.
fully plainly for utilizing her automatic powers to abuse an
individual from her Ward to abuse a group of individuals
black Americans that Die daily almost
but to no regard
Kenneth Sandy shot down by Kamari Robertson, but still the
gun charge dropped the murder dropped I suppose he wanted.
your assassins.
Just like Nigel the Young.
Just like Nigel the young man who was sent to kill me.
but she put up a nice little um, oh, um,
But she put up a nice little um, oh, um what that was a
shooting in Roger Park tonight D D D D D D.
But I got shot in the stomach that night.
I got shot in my foot that night 15 and I had to sit on.
I got shot in my foot that night 15 and I had to sit on the
old man and take to keep his life.
but this is
But this is what happens. So I'm here. I'm the I'm the um
the embodiment. I'm the the person in person look.
the embodiment. I'm the the person in person. Look the
reality of what's happening in Rogers Park right now.
the reality of
The reality of when you dealing with somebody in ethical
unethical somebody.
unethical somebody who just don't know no good somebody who
going to show you that they bigger and better.
But you ain't live my life woman. You ain't here to go
through nothing that I had to go through but I'm 43 years.
here right now still alive, and I promise you I will push.
and going to keep pushing to be alive for in Sims and
and gonna keep pushing to be alive for in Sims and yasuke
Roosevelt Sim.
But here it is y'all.
But here it is y'all I'm fighting for my life. I want my
life back y'all got
life back. Y'all got power to do it.
Y'all got power to investigate.
Y'all got power to investigate y'all got power to look into
I want my life.
I want my life back.
I'm being pushed into an area of Madness. I'm being made
into a murderer.
I'm being made into a murderer.
because these men
Because these men called me they threatened me they didn't
know what I do to them.
but I won't be
and I want y'all to investigate this woman and I want her
just to she shouldn't be in power.
nobody like that should be empowered to where you cut off
whole blocks, but you don't care about the the citizens,
but I'mma cut off blocks to to accommodate.
but I'mma cut off blocks to to accommodate my sexuality.
I'm going to do all these things. I'm going to put Flags in
the street.
the street to accommodate my sexuality.
to prove that I
To prove that I got the power.
over the citizens
over all of y'all, but she won't prove it over me.
over all of y'all, but she won't prove it over me because I
serve a God man that put breath.
serve a God man that put breath in every and each and 1 of
y'all all of y'all y'all.
y'all all of y'all y'all breathe because of him.
this lady breathe because of
This lady breathe because of him. I'm breathing because of
his regard because of his consideration.
his regard because of his consideration because she wanted
me dead.
I want my life back. Thank you, sir. You're 3 minutes are
up.
Our first order of business. I want to recognize all the
women to bars for.
women to bars for purposes of Quorum. Our first order of
business is the rule 45 report from January 2024, which was
distributed to the committee via email. Can I get a motion
to approve that?
to approve that report?
so moved by older woman lie all those
So moved by older woman lie all those in favor signify by
saying I all those opposed.
saying I all those opposed say no in the opinion of the
chair the eyes have it. We will now begin the subject
matter here.
matter here in regarding the office of Inspector. General's
quarterly report for the fourth quarter of 2023 like to
introduce Inspector General Deborah witzburg to provide
brief.
brief comments. Thank you general for joining us and please
begin.
begin when you're prepared. Good morning. Thank you very
much for having me. I I very much appreciate the invitation
to come before the committee.
to come before the committee each quarter to talk about our
quarterly.
quarterly report. Um, this is an important opportunity for
us to talk.
us to talk with you all about our work and I really
appreciate the time and the invitation as you all know, the
municipal code requires the office of Inspector.
municipal code requires the office of Inspector General to
publish a report 4 times a year.
publish a report 4 times a year which summarizes the work
published by the office during that quarter.
published by the office during that quarter, um for our
investigative work, we are required to publish D
identified.
summaries of our administrative investigations. So no 1 is
named in those reports. Um, we publish more information
about Criminal
cases and about our our program and policy.
cases and about our our program and policy work.
So I'll begin with an over.
So I'll begin with an overview of the the matters we
touched on in the cover letter to this quarterly report,
which was really kind of a look back at.
which was really kind of a look back at 2023. Um, and the
the successes of the office. I I I find that in our work.
success can be hard to measure. Um, I I don't anticipate
our eliminating, uh, waste and misconduct in city
government in any 1 quarter or in any 1 year for that
matter and so where there is no sort of Finish Line in
sight.
sight progress can
Be hard to measure we certainly had.
Be hard to measure we certainly had in 2023 successes that
work.
work kind of qualitative in nature that are hard to to put
a metric.
a metric on but some really important things that we
touched on in this report.
touched on in this report those include creative and
aggressive enforcement of the rules specifically
unprecedented rigor.
unprecedented rigor in the offices ethics investigation.
Oig when we investigate violations of the city's ethics
ordinance. We send those cases to the board of ethics and
ask that they find probable.
ask that they find probable cause to believe that an Ethics
violation has occurred. Oh
violation has occurred. Oig sent approximately as many
cases to the board for a successful finding of probable
cause in 2023.
cause in 2023 as the office had in the decade before that.
um
we
We are we have undertaken litigation to enfor.
we are we have undertaken litigation to enforce oig
subpoenas and we have prosecuted people for obstructing oig
investigations the first such prosecutions.
investigations. The first such prosecutions of which we are
aware that is to ensure that the the teeth we bring to our
enforcement.
enforcement powers are appropriately Sharp.
Um, we have done meaningful productive Community
engagement.
and Outreach. We have been in many of your Wards. You all
have been very helpful.
have been very helpful to us and helping to connect us with
people in your neighborhood.
people in your neighborhoods. We will continue to ask you,
um,
um for advice and opportunities in your ward to connect
with the Chicago.
with the Chicago and who live there.
We've done the thoughtful human centered.
We've done the thoughtful human centered fieldwork to make
sure that our work is appropri.
sure that our work is appropriately informed by the lived
experience of Chicago.
experience of Chicagoans. Um, I I think among the high
points of our field.
points of our fieldwork this in 2023 was our workaround
encampment.
encampments of unhoused, uh, Chicagoans.
other other projects as well have really benefited from
meaningful engagement.
in our field work we've
In our field work. We've also worked to to build and expand
our presence on the national over.
our presence on the national oversight landscape. There are
many many many offices around.
many many many offices around the country doing work like
the work that we do and we have found tremendous benefit in
in expanding.
in expanding our presence to and our connection with those
other offices where we are better positioned to study best.
practices. Avoid Reinventing Wheels Etc.
practices. Avoid Reinventing Wheels Etc a few things in
2023 in this quarterly report.
2023 in this quarterly report where where we can get a hold
of of of a somewhat more quantitative.
of of of a somewhat more quantitative measure of success in
terms of Staffing we talked a bit about
terms of Staffing. We talked a bit about this in our budget
hearing last fall and so I want to kind of close
on this oig has a larger budgeted.
on this oig has a larger budgeted staff now than ever
before we have 124 budget.
before we have 124 budgeted positions and 2 detailed CPD
member positions.
member positions in 2023. We hired 40 new people we
promoted.
promoted 16 people internally as of last night we
promoted 16 people internally as of last night. We have 120
of those positions filled and both of our CPD details are
filled.
um consent decree compliance in 2023, oig became the first
and only component of city government to satisfy our
obligations under the consent decree. We are in full and
effective comp.
effective compliance and are now out from under the consent
are
decree.
um
case closures I want to touch on many of you have have
reflected on and and we have talked about a concern that
historically oig's investigations have taken too long. They
have taken too long. Um, I as a former prosecutor and and
very clear on the notion that the cases do not improve with
age.
age No 1 is well served by investigations aging and
we've undertaken tremendous efforts.
we've undertaken tremendous efforts to lessen our
investigative backlog and to shorten the lifespan of our
disciplinary investigations in the fourth quarter in this
report. We report on the closing of 137 investigations.
and that was a nearly 30% reduction in the year.
count
um
I'm I'm going to go through sort of a few of the other.
things that we cover in this report. These are all
discussed in.
discussed in more detail in the document and I'm happy to
talk more about any of them that are of particular interest
here.
We have over.
We have over the last 2 years. We have centralized the
offices intake function.
offices intake function that is to say we've moved our
intake section out of our investigations operation and and
centralized it in the office so that when we hear from
Chicagoans when we get pieces of information, we are better
positioned to determine what the best oversight.
positioned to determine what the best oversight solution
might be to each particular.
problem whether that is a disciplinary investigation or a
policy inquiry or a data review or whatever the case may be
by centralizing our intake.
by centralizing our intake function. We're better
positioned to tailor solutions to those problems.
positioned to tailor solutions to those problems in the
fourth quarter. We received 1 18
fourth quarter. We received 1,853 intakes most of those are
are by email. We report the specific numbers in the
document we
document. We also hear from people by telephone online
portal and letter a handful of other methods as well. We
self initi
self-initiated 47 intakes. Um, that's a specific.
self-initiated 47 intakes. Um, that's a specific
empowerment in the municipal code.
among our misconduct investigations at the close of the
fourth quarter. We had 214 active, Mis.
fourth quarter. We had 214 active misconduct investigations
95 of those have been open more than 12 months.
and of those 214 in
And of those 214 investigations, there's a breakdown here
of the subject.
of the subject of those investigations 171 of them have as
their subject city employees 19 of them.
their subject city employees 19 of them have as their
subject elected officials 15 contractors subcontractors or
persons seeking contract.
persons seeking contracts 2 licenses 2 appointed officials
and 5 in various other categories. I will say quickly
this other category among the things we have done for the
first time.
first time in 2023 is pursued violations of the ethics
ordinance by members of the public the eth.
ordinance by members of the public the ethics ordinance
permits in a situation in which a member of the public
offers a bribe to a city employee or official the ethics
ordinance. In fact permits enforcement of that.
ordinance. In fact permits enforcement of that rule against
both the person offering the improper gift.
both the person offering the improper gift and a person who
accepts an improper gift.
accepts an improper gift and so for the first time we have
pursued
In the fourth quarter we reported.
In the fourth quarter, we reported 21 sustained
administrative investigations. So these are the deified
summaries that we talked about.
summaries that we talked about no names are included but in
brief.
brief summary some of the a few of the cases that we
reported.
reported here. Are are the following we reported on
reported here are are the following we reported on DBA CP
employees who incompetently perform.
employees who incompetently performed their duties during
the protests and unrest following the murder of George
Floyd.
We reported on an elected official.
We reported on an elected official who improperly
terminated to city employees.
terminated to city employees in violation of the city. The
city's ethics rules and the, Illinois.
city's ethics rules and the Illinois whistleblower Act.
We reported on a cfd.
We reported on a cfd employee sexually harassing an
employee of a business.
employee of a business being inspected.
and elected official
And elected official misusing City resources for personal
political.
political purposes.
We investig.
We investigated and sustained allegations against a
high-level DPS.
high-level DPS employee who engaged in unauthorized
secondary.
secondary employment and unauthorized use of city property
and had engaged in fraud in order to obtain employment with
DPS.
We pursued a former.
We pursued a former cdph employee who lied to oig in the
course of an investig.
course of an investigation and a city debt collection
contractor.
contractor who misused their access to City Data Systems.
and collected more than dollars in improper Conte.
and collected more than dollars in improper contingency
fees.
um
Those are our administrative cases.
Those are our administrative cases, uh where we do not
provide names when cases are prose.
provide names when cases are prosecuted in our matters of
public record. We do include ident.
public record. We do include identifying information in the
quarterly report. There are 2 of those here.
quarterly report. There are 2 of those here in IG
investigation led to a prosecution of an office of the city
clerk employee who committed thefts of cash payments. She
received in processing City stick.
received in processing city sticker purchases.
um as a result of oig's invest
Um, as a result of oig's investigation that employee was
indicted in the Circuit Court of Cook County.
indicted in the Circuit Court of Cook County on 2 counts of
theft 1 count of Computer Fraud and 1 count.
theft 1 count of Computer Fraud and 1 count of official
misconduct. That matter is pending.
Uh, the second matter here the city of Chicago.
Uh, the second matter here the city of Chicago versus
levinia. Morasan is 1 where is 1 of the cases? I mentioned
where we are pursuing prosecution of people who obstruct
and interfere with oig investigations. We previously
reported in the third quarter of last year.
reported in the third quarter of last year, uh in
investigation into a department of building project manag.
who was violating conflict of interest Rules by process.
who was violating conflict of interest Rules by processing
and reviewing permits. Um submitted by an Expediting
company owned by that, uh employees spouse.
we interviewed the spouse in the course of that
investigation and the spouse knowingly made false
statements to us in violation of the municipal code. We
pursue that as an obstruction of an oig investigation and
the court, uh entered Judd.
the court, uh, entered judgment against the spouse and
assess a fine.
from our Public Safety section we
From our Public Safety section. We published a number of
evaluations and reviews during this quarter. Those were a
sort of explainer product on cpd's budget. We've done this
now for a couple of years in a row. Um, I I frankly think
this is a responsibility.
this is a responsibility which may transition to the
community commission over time given their responsibilities
around budget transparency, but we have over the last
couple of years published a product which is not
in nature, but is a recognition of the fact that
in nature. But is a recognition of the fact that the the
police department's budget is by far the largest
the city's budget by department and it's a it is a complex.
Um,
Document it's a complex exercise. And so we this is just a
transparency initiative around that we published.
transparency initiative around that we published in update
of sorts on cpd's storage and use.
of sorts on cpd's storage and use of gang data and a and a
follow-up on our report a couple of years ago on the city's
compliance and copas compliance specifically with the
city's video release policy.
Our Public Safety section is divided into 2 function.
Our Public Safety section is divided into 2 functions. We
we have our uh performance analysis function.
we have our uh performance analysis function that publishes
these evaluations and reviews.
these evaluations and reviews and investigative analysis
function, which is focused on oversight of the police
disciplinary system. This section is charged by ordinance
with reviewing individual.
with reviewing individual closed disciplinary
investigations conducted.
the Bureau of internal affairs and by Coppa
Um pursuant to the municipal code when we review those
cases.
cases, uh, if we identify ones which contain the standard
set out in the law is a deficiency.
set out in the law is a deficiency materially affecting
their outcome. We can send that.
their outcome. We can send that investigation back to its
agency with a recommendation to reopen it.
during this quarter the fourth quarter of
During this quarter the fourth quarter of 2023 that unit
examined.
examined 311 closed disciplinary investigations and
conduct.
conducted an in-depth review of 25 of them.
conducted an in-depth review of 25 of them during this
quarter. We found 2 Copa cases that contained deficiencies
materially affecting their outcome and recommended to Coppa
that they reopen those
here too in this in this segment of our work.
Here too in this in this segment of our work when a case
reaches a kind of final.
reaches a kind of final procedural resting place when it is
no longer a matter under consider.
no longer a matter under consideration. We publish a
summary of the investigation. We reviewed our
recommendation and the agency's responses.
recommendation and the agency's responses among those that
we reported in the fourth quarter was a Copa investigation
which Copa administratively closed in the course of what it
is calling its Tim.
is calling its timeliness initiative project. That's an
initiative where coupa has identified a number of criteria.
um where they will close investigations Meeting those
criteria administratively in order to to um shrink their
case load. We reviewed 1 investigation closed as part of
that.
that program where there were allegations that a CPD.
had fondled in a rusty.
um, the timeliness initiative project criteria, um EX
um, the timeliness initiative project criteria, um, exclude
cases with allegations of sexual misconduct it says
cases with allegations of sexual misconduct. It says that
those cases are ineligible for closure in this program.
Nonetheless. This investigation we reviewed was
Nonetheless this investigation. We reviewed was closed, um,
including its allegations of sexual misconduct. We
recommended that copper reopen it.
recommended that copper reopen it reopen the matter in
accordance with its policies, and they
accordance with its policies and they declined to do so
elsewhere in the office in our audit and
Elsewhere in the office in our audit and program review
section and elsewhere we publish.
section and elsewhere. We publish audits follow-ups
advisories and notifications. These are some of those other
oversight tools we use to get at problems which come
through our door.
We published a follow-up to an earlier audit of the city's
compliance with the Tif Sunshine ordinance and the Tif.
Surplus executive order. These follow-up reports are sort
of how we measure progress when we ISS.
of how we measure progress when we issue recommendations to
a city department and they commit to corrective.
a city department and they commit to corrective actions. We
follow up somewhere between 6 months.
follow up somewhere between 6 months and 18 months later
usually to see whether the city Department.
usually to see whether the city department has met its
obligations. Um,
and so that that's what we that was the
And so that that's what we that was the exercise here with
the with the sunshine audit and the Tif Surplus.
order. We published an explainer.
order. We published an explainer, uh a descriptive product
on what happens how the city responds to a complaint of a
sewer cave-in. We are doing more of this kind of work.
sewer cave-in. We are doing more of this kind of work more,
um transparency driven work, which is designed.
um transparency driven work, which is designed to help
Chicagoans kind of navigate and understand.
Chicagoans kind of navigate and understand bureaucracies in
city government. So again here this is this was not an
evaluative product. There were not recommendations here.
This was designed to help people understand what happens.
when they call through on 1 to say there's a sewer cave and
in my neighborhood
we send a notification to the Department of
We send a notification to the Department of Finance and I
want to highlight this 1 because I I think there are.
want to highlight this 1 because I I think there are there.
There are tremendous dollar implications here.
notification to the Department of Finance, um regarding
outdated payment processing systems the Department of
Finance.
Finance has itself identified outdated Payment Processing.
Technologies at various points of sale. So these are these
are doof Windows around the city.
are doof Windows around the city right where somebody might
go and pay any number of kinds of things in person at that
window the technology that has been in use at those points
of sale is such that the city is bearing the trans.
of sale is such that the city is bearing the transaction
fees.
um, that's not a question that oig has a position on
necessarily in terms of who should bear those fees, but
doof and the City have
doof and the city have articulated an intention to adopt a
new techn.
new technology which would shift those fees away from the
city and onto the people paying.
paying the transactions despite in articulated Comm
paying the transactions despite in articulated commitment
to doing that to adopting that new technology it has
been adopted and as a result between 2017 and 2020 the city
has paid more than 12 million in those in-person
transactions.
transactions where they would have been shifted off of the
city. If in fact the city had gone forward with its stated
intention.
intention to use this new technology.
We sent a notification.
to the Chicago Police Department
To the Chicago Police Department. And what was at the time
AIS? Uh jointly
AIS, uh, jointly around the question of what information is
publicly.
publicly available, uh in crash reports, there's a system
which allows members of the public to get copies of Chicago
Police Department crash reports. Um, and and we identified
a concern around the way that various pieces of
information.
a concern around the way that various pieces of information
could be assembled to reveal private.
could be assembled to reveal private information.
We sent a notification to DPS.
We sent a notification to DPS regarding a city contractor's
false claim settlement. So we this this had to do with a
city a major city Conte.
city a major city contractor who operates in other states
and reach.
and reached a settlement with law enforcement authorities
in Massachusetts around false claims, the city's
procurement rules.
procurement rules permit the city to to initiate Deb.
procurement rules permit the city to to initiate debarment
action against a contract.
Doctor Who in who admits to this kind of wrongdoing
elsewhere so
elsewhere. So we sent a notification to DPS in this
particular case, they elected not
particular case. They elected not to pursue debarment
proceedings against this contractor.
Um, and finally here we sent a notification to OEM
regarding mistreatment of a member of a public of the
public.
public by an oemc call taker
and then finally quickly as as you all know, we have a unit
in the office as well which monitors the cities.
actions. This is post shackman monitoring.
actions. This is post shackman monitoring work to ensure
that having reached substantial compliance.
that having reached substantial compliance with the shakman
decree and being out from under Federal monitor.
decree and being out from under Federal monitorship that
the city continues to play by the rules.
the city continues to play by the rules set out in the
shakman decrees around employment decisions.
shakman decrees around employment decisions and so a few of
the kinds of work that we
of the kinds of work that we do and again, all of this is
reported in more detail. Um,
reported in more detail, um in the fourth quarter we
reported on our receipt of notifications of political
contacts by elected or appointed officials during processes
for City positions. We reviewed senior manager hires in
various City departments. We reviewed proposed
modifications to minim.
modifications to minimum qualifications for city jobs, we
audited 9 hiring sequences across 5 City.
audited 9 hiring sequences across 5 City departments those
audits amount to um, retrospective reviews of all,
audits amount to um, retrospective reviews of all of the
paperwork all of the documents associated with the
higher to make sure that everything went as
departments that is real-time monitoring where we sit in
the room for interviews. We sit in the room for consensus
meetings.
meetings to make sure again that as they as they play out
those processes are going according to the rules.
So um with
So, um with that I'm happy to answer any questions or to
talk more about anything. That's of
talk more about anything that's of particular interest to
the committee. Thank you Jenner General. We appreciate
everyone.
everyone who acknowledged Alderman Talia Farrell vice mayor
Bern.
Bernett, um for purposes of quorum.
Bernett, um for purposes of Quorum. Um, I want to ask a
little bit about the um, the auditing that you did of the 9
here.
here sequences. I find it very notable that for your own.
office if if my notes are correct. Do you had 124 budgeted
positions?
positions all but 4 of them are filled currently we had
them all.
them all filled very very briefly, but then some people
selfishly moved out of town and you know Etc. Yeah, so I I
think that's outstanding.
think that's outstanding given the fact that some of our
departments have vacancy rates.
departments have vacancy rates that run north of 20% at any
given time. And so I'm curious both with your own processes
and what you have concluded with the auditing. Um, what are
some um Pro
some um process improvements that we could monitor across
departments to ensure that some of our larger ones, uh,
including law and DFS.
us that have a lot of vacancies do
Us that have a lot of vacancies do a better job of filling.
I app.
I appreciate the question. This is certainly an area where
we have.
we have um.
1 of the things we've tried to do over the last 2 years was
was to turn inward a lens which we have historically.
was to turn inward a lens which we have historically very
much cast outward on other City departments and their
hiring.
hiring and I will say a couple things 1 is that candidly we
We had a lot of work to do here. Um, and and
had a lot of work to do here, um and and 1 of the things
which 1 of the challenges presented by the lengthy
transition between oig administrations was that there was
great deal of employee attrition during that time. Oh, I
nearly 30% vacant when I when I was confirmed and so we had
a we had a lot of work.
a we had a lot of work to do so we um, we did some restruct
restructuring of our own, um kind of senior
restructuring of our own, um, kind of senior staff and our
own HR infrastructure so that we had more resources the
fact of the matter is that hiring is hugely resour
intensive. Um, and so we needed more infrastructure around
our own process to do that. So we did that we re
some management roles to devote more bandwidth to hiring.
Um, we filled positions we had we added we added new
position.
positions in our 2023 budget.
positions in our 2023 budget, um to kind of accord with
with our with our strategic priorities and so on um, and
then and then during 2023 devoted enormous resources to to
filling those positions. So some of it is just sort of
attention and bandwidth and prioritizing that but but
certainly there are process improvements that can be made
oig has its own higher plan it is we are not covered.
oig has its own higher plan it is we are not covered by the
city's
plan and I think that um
Plan and I think that um, there are opportunities to match
some Provisions in the in the overall.
some Provisions in the in the overall cities hiring plan to
look more like some of the processes that are available to
us. We are
us we are and I think there's a lot of opportunity here
with new leadership in the department of
with new leadership in the Department of Human Resources. I
really look forward to working with commissioner Blakemore
on this there are opportunities to streamline City.
on this there are opportunities to streamline City hiring
processes. And I think where we are in the post shackman
World, there are still very much things that need
microscope attention to make sure that we are keeping
improper political influences out of City hiring. There are
other things where the battle lines have moved.
other things where the battle lines have moved somewhat and
we don't we don't need yesterday's solutions for today's
problems. And so I think that they're really all are
opportun.
opportunities where we can help streamline some of those
processes.
Are you planning to share those recommend?
Are you planning to share those recommendations in a more
formal written way?
formal written way with commissioner Blake Moore and others
or will it be a more?
or will it be a more informal conversational process?
think some of both and and we are really in very early
stages of conversations about that just as sort of as the
ink dries on her new on her new business cards there. Um,
but but there's a lot of work to be done and and I'll
anxious to to talk with folks. I I think many of certain
many of you in your ward offices and many people in
leadership.
leadership in City departments have lots of experience
which I think would be helpful in kind of refining and
updating and streamlining some of those processes. Thank
you Alderman, Noe.
Good morning.
morning several
Morning, several months ago, um during budget hearings.
um
you had stated to all of
You had stated to all of us that you were outgrowing your
space. Um.
and that you were looking for more space to accommodate the
fact that
You're ramping up. Uh.
you're ramping up, uh hiring and it's great to know that
we're now where we need to be in that. Um,
how is that situation?
how is that situation now?
I appreciate the question. Um, we we did talk exactly about
that in the budget process. Um
that in the budget process, um where we identified really 2
sets of problems with our existing.
sets of problems with our existing Space 1 was simply a
capacity 1 OG has been in its exist.
capacity 1 OG has been in its existing space in the city
building at 7:40 North Sedwick.
building at 7:40 North Sedwick for about 20 years. We have
approximately doubled in size since we moved there. Um same
space
same space twice the number of people not not a recipe for
success.
Success, so we certainly have space constraints. There are
ALS
also tremendous security deficits in that space in terms of
both.
both physical security as well as its location in a
building where we have people who don't want to come and
talk to us because they don't want to run into other city
employees in the building. Um, when things go wrong in the
space, we've had city employees and City contractors sort
of crawling all over our confidential invest
which has been a real problem particularly in recent
months.
as we have had.
am pleased to report that we were before the real estate
Committee in.
Committee in febuary, um, the committee approved and the
council voted on a lease for oig in a new space in a
private.
private building in a non-city building, um with
appropriate physical security independence from other City
departments. We are working with the law department and
with AIS to have that the terms of that lease finalized and
signed, but I'm I'm optimistic that we are in a good place.
That's good to hear. Um.
I just wanted to finish by saying I appreciate your work
work of your staff.
and um
continue. Thank you very much.
Alderman tally faroh
recommendations and I say through all
Recommendations through all this is made.
quite a few recommendations that your office has made in
the past with regard to um, reopening and investigations or
uh cases or or um audits that have been conduct.
uh cases or or um audits that have been conducted on the
Chicago Police Department. Um, have gun have gone
unchanged. Um, or
um, or not it here too. What is that as well? You know what
mechanism do we have in place to make your office more
effective?
I understand that in in many inst.
I understand that in in many instances you you're not the
final Authority. Um, but in some instances your office
should be uh, and I I brought that up because I noticed 1
of your investigations with regard to a sexual misconduct.
Uh, it was your recommendation to reopen that investig.
Uh, it was your recommendation to reopen that investigation
and uh Copa declined so
and uh Copa declined. So what mechanism do we have in place
so that um in some instances, uh, your recommendations are
final Authority, um to whereby cases like that can be real
opened.
I appreciate the question. Um.
I I there certainly could be legislative changes.
would alter sort of the obligations of City.
would alter sort of the obligations of City departments
receiving our recommendations. Um, I think that even with
the current legislative function, I think that 1 of the
most powerful ways to kind of bring those recommendations
to life is to bring them before you all and your committ.
chairman. I I I have been very appreciative of your
hearings holding subject matter hearings on some of our
work.
work and our Public Safety section, I think um, sort of
having a a conversation about those recommendations in the
light of day is a substantial step.
light of day is a substantial step toward bringing them to
life. Uh, you called hearing last year about um extremism
in the police department. I found that the that exercise
the exercise of that public.
the exercise of that public conversation to be really
important. I think that that moves the ball forward in the
implementation of those recommendations, so
implementation of those recommendations. So I you know, I
you all have heard me say many times I will go anywhere
implementation status of them. Um, I I think that hearings
before your committees, um are perhaps the best way the
best tool that we have right now where you all can obligate
stakeholders and decision makers in other City departments.
to come before you and to explain their decisions.
to come before you and to explain their decisions around
implementation or refusal to implement oig's recom.
recommendations. Yeah, and that that is 1 example that I
was referring to um, in fact your office made some
good recommendations with regard to extreme and some on the
police department and a lot of those recommendations.
not um, adhere to or and we're still dealing with
guidelines on uh, how to deal with that on the Chicago
Police Department and and
Police Department. And and so it should it certainly has
not been pushed in a Direction.
not been pushed in a direction. I'd like to see it pushed
in but um, so thank you for your resp.
in but um, so thank you for your response because we'll
keep bringing those issues up.
keep bringing those issues up and from a public safety and
police and fire.
police and fire perspective, but I would certainly love to
see a mechanism where um some of these recommendations
final Authority, um on your office because of
Final Authority, um on your office because of the severity
of them. Thank you. I appreciate that chairman and
of them. Thank you. I appreciate that. Sorry. I'll just
very quickly say I think that um the case reopening
recommendations specifically that probably is an area which
lends itself to some legislative clarification.
lends itself to some legislative clarification, um where
the agencies receiving those recommendations probably could
be obligated to to do more with them and I'd welcome.
conversation about that, um on the extremism in the police
department.
department Point specifically, we will have more to say
about that. We will publish further.
about that. We will publish further and I would be very
happy to come back before your committee to talk more about
that when we do that.
Thank you.
Thank you, uh alderwoman Taylor then Lawson then lie.
Thank you chair.
um
How are you? I heard you talk about working with.
How are you? I heard you talk about working with the new
commissioner of DHR. Um, are there some recommendations for
us to get some of these position?
us to get some of these positions feel I feel like every
budget.
budget we're asked to budget for
exonomic positions, especially when it comes to CPD, uh the
Departments, but then when we come back we see
Departments but then when we come back we see none of the
money was spent on none of the positions feel.
money was spent on none of the positions feel were there
some recommendations to talk about if you don't feel these
positions within a certain amount of time you lose the
money we can put the money somewhere else because that a
conversation that you're having with this Administration or
has the OG put out the IG put out.
has the OG put out the IG put out a report about it. We
haven't put out a report about it, but
That's the conversation that needs to happen and I think
that that really, um, that is in my mind very much.
of a conversation. We have a lot which is that
Resources are finite right? There's a finite pool.
resources are finite right there's a finite pool of City
resources, and we cannot be in a position where
resources and we cannot be in a position where the solution
to every problem is more.
to every problem is more dollars there. There are only so
many of those dollars only so many people um, and so we
need to shift those conversations to ones about resource
allocation and how we how we allocate City resources across
departments across functions across titles Etc. Um, I I
think there's a powerful Common Sense argument that if a
position has been vacant,
position has been vacant for some amount of time then we
don't then we should allocate that those dollars elsewhere.
I think that's a I think that's an important perspective so
we haven't
So we haven't published anything on that. We haven't made
recommendations, but that is the sort of thing. We're
after.
and so I I look forward to talking more about that. Has
there been an investigation around um,
there been an investigation around um opsa sending out
letters to folks who failed the drug test that actually did
didn't like that that seems like that that's been ignored
at every budget for the last 2 years convers.
And I've I'm surprised.
And I've I'm surprised there has not been a real
conversation about it.
I'll be happy to have a conversation about that. I will
follow up with you. Okay? Um.
I'm going I want to follow up with.
I'm going I want to follow up with all the mental ferro's
question. What is in place when?
question. What is in place when Coppa and IG kind of don't
agree what?
agree what what happens who who like to tie break I guess
if I'm asking the question like what happens? Um, well,
that's a really good question. Um, nothing happens, um when
we make a recommendation to Coppa to reopen an
investigation, which we have found to be materially
deficient the existing language of the municipal code says
that they can either take that recommendation.
that they can either take that recommendation or not.
um
That is the point where I think some legislative
clarification.
clarification, um or adjustment might be well taken.
What happens is that we publish an account of that?
What happens is that we publish an account of that. Um, we
also I will say once those cases the wreck the cases that
we wreck for where we recommend reopening once those reach
that kind of final.
that kind of final procedural resting place.
the exch
The exchange our recommendation to the agency and their
response. Those are public records. Those are releasable.
We release those in Foya. Um, you've seen some of those you
can coverage of some of those including in some of the
extremism cases we are
extremism cases. We are looking at ways to Simply make
those public to just publish those proactively rather than
only in response to foyer requests in the hopes that doing
so would draw more attention to those decisions and to the
agency responses.
agency responses to our recommendations. Is it your
responsibility to come?
responsibility to come to the city council and say hey we
need to put something in law. We need to put something
ordinance.
Um, I we have what we have brought to the council so far is
an account.
an accounting of those decisions. Um and the response
know, our the accounting of our recommendations and the
responses. I'd be very happy to to talk about a legislative
approach. Um, you talked about the outdated payment.
approach. Um, you talked about the outdated payment system.
Have they updated it?
Are we doing any because you said 12 million dollars?
are we doing any because you said 12 million dollars is
what we paid that could have been 12 million dollars to a
community to somewhere else. That's exactly right and
that's why I highlighted that.
that's why I highlighted that point particularly. Um, there
is no shortage.
is no shortage of opportunity to do good in this city with
the resour.
the resources to do it. Um,
as of the fourth
As of the fourth quarter of 2023 the up the payment techn.
technology has not been updated by the Department of
Finance. They continue to say that it is their intention to
do so that hasn't yet been done.
And so what's the remedy?
And so what's the remedy do? Does City Council vote to stop
pay pay payment? I mean not pay the folks in finance with
like what is the remedy?
like what is the remedy we can't I feel like we're very
wasteful. I don't feel like we are wasteful that's what it
is. And so this is another thing that's not that's an easy
fix.
fix that we're refusing to do something to it, and it's
costing taxpayers $12 million time is literally money in
this case. That's right.
That is a question.
That is a question for the Department of Finance.
Alderwoman, I'll I'll say in response to that that.
Alderwoman, I'll I'll say in response to that that oh,
we'll send a communication to finance. Um
we'll send a communication to finance, um asking for an
update and we'll share that responds with the committee.
Um, my last question was
all Department.
all Department hiring fairs. So we're we're lately as of
lately as of the last 2 and 3 years.
lately as of the last 2 and 3 years different caucuses
different aldermen are are doing these higher and fairs.
How are you going to coordinate?
How are you going to coordinate with um commissioner Blake
Moore?
Moore to to say hey what came out?
Moore to to say hey what came out of those? Like was it a
waste of City time and finance? How are you using these
spaces to make sure that we're employing people to fill
those positions.
our role in those events will really be to make sure that
as new methods of hiring and recruiting our developed that
we're still complying with the rules, right that as we
think about
about new and creative ways to recruit people that were not
kind of leaving open opportunities for improper political
influence.
influence and and so on. Um, that's a really good example
of the kind of thing that we have to be nimble enough to
move.
move in the direction of we have to be doing new and
different things to recruit and hire excellent people for
City service because what we've been doing so far hasn't
worked right too many.
worked right too many vacancies. We need more Talent. We
need more people in City service doing
Um, and so that is exactly
work closely with d
We had somebody testify about reports. How do you make it
very easy or a very?
very easy or a very accessible for folks who in the
community who?
community who want to file an inspector general report we
have um, we have a number of ways for people to get in
touch with us. Um, we will take we take intakes online on
our website where we have a web form people can fill out
with their their name or not. We have a phone number where
we will take calls.
we will take calls in in any language for which we have
transl.
translation services available. Um, we have over the last
year and a half or so we have new signs on.
year and a half or so. We have new signs on CTA buses and
trains in English and Spanish with information about
contact us including QR codes that people can go to
directly we've sort of mapped across the city where the
neighborhoods we have reached with in person Outreach
events. We go to farmers markets. We will go to Ward nights
many of you.
many of you have hosted us in your Wards. We appreciate
that and we'll be back. Um, and and we have looked at on a
map of the city.
map of the city where we have gaps in that Outreach and
where we've
Gaps, we've put up billboards with contact information. Um
we have we distributed to all of your offices earlier this
year.
year, uh, Palm cards printed materials, and we've printed
them in 5.
them in 5 languages. We distributed samples of those to
your offices if any of
your offices. If any of you would like more of those in any
of the languages in which they're available. Please let us
know if you would like those in a language that is not yet
available. Let us know.
available. Let us know we will make those available. Um,
and and we we will you know, I think 1 of the 1
benefits of of our sort of city council structure, is that
you all are incredibly well positioned for local knowledge.
about your Wars and the needs of your constituents and how
things work.
things work in in a very specific neighborhood. And so you
are the subject matter experts about your constituents and
if you tell us that there's a good way to reach your
constitu.
constituents that we aren't doing. Let me know and we'll be
there.
last question
you talked to if you go back to there was a screen where
you had a bunch of different.
cases
what I didn't see on there and maybe it doesn't exist as
hey crimes.
Is that something that you all investigate or is that
another?
another department that you're actually working with?
If a hate crime is committed by a city employee.
If a hate crime is committed by a city employee that is
certainly something we would investigate there are none of
those included.
those included among the cases we reported in this quarter,
but that
quarter, but that is certainly something we would look at
as a violation of a criminal law.
violation of a criminal law as a violation of the ethics
ordinance as a violation of a personnel.
ordinance as a violation of a Personnel rule. It could be
any 1 of those things that is certain something that we
would
that we would that we would take. Thank you commissioner.
Thank you cheer. Thank you. Thank you Elder woman Alderman
Lawson followed
Thank you chair. Thank you General witzburg. I will just
lend my voice.
lend my voice to the HR piece of this because I think um,
it's something that we're all seeing in all departments and
I want to give you um kudos for doing what you've done in
your department and and the kind of guidance you can give
other departments to work with, uh, commissioner Blake
Moore's appreciated. Um, I have said we need to do a better
job in our universities our law schools are
job in our universities our law schools our grad schools
our city college that attracting Talent.
our city college that attracting Talent, especially if
these kids have a lot of debt and want to work for the
government.
government, um and get some of that paid off and stay in
the city and that move back to Ohio. So um, let's do that.
I also was reading right before I got here about uh our
payments and tmas in the Sun Times and how we are uh, very
late in Billing and owed and you know hundreds of thousands
from just events this Summer that we haven't bothered to
bill with and you know, I think um,
Hiring tmas is mainly what we talked about.
Hiring tmas is mainly what we talk about more as as the
issue. Uh, but if we're not if we're
payment, that's a real problem. So I think you've
our interest there. Um, I wanted to
the 47 South initiated intakes in the last quarter. What
what's the crit?
what's the criteria? Uh, you mentioned by ordinance and
then what
subject to a self-initiated intake, um and the makeup of
those.
those varies a lot. Sometimes those are misconduct
investigations where we become aware of
of an allegation of misconduct. Sometimes that's in the
Press. Sometimes we read something in the newspaper, which
um, looks like misconduct sometimes.
um, looks like misconduct. Sometimes we in the course of
our other work. We might become aware of something so
for example, you know, I I think it is often the case that
misconduct is sort of co-located with poor controls, right
if somebody is breaking the rules if somebody's taking
money out of the cash register literally.
money out of the cash register literally or figuratively
that is often co-located.
that is often co-located with a situation where
controls around red
controls around read like reconciling cash at the end of
the day are 2 week.
so
So we we find that sometimes in our program and policy.
where we are looking at controls. We are looking we are
doing performance.
doing performance auditing we might uncover evidence of
individual.
individual misconduct and then we might initiate a
complaint on the basis.
complaint on the basis of that. So that is all to say can
be a range of things anything within our jurisdiction.
Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, although in Lee.
Thank you.
Thank you chair, uh Inspector General, it's good to see
you. Thanks for the really in-depth. Um summary of the the
quarterly report. You said something at the the top of your
presentation that just really struck me. Um, and that you
in 2023 had as many cases.
in 2023 had as many cases, um as the previous decade can
you give us a sense of like the number? Um, because I
Like to dig into that a little bit more.
your thoughts on why there's so many more. Um,
your thoughts on why there are so many more um than than
previous. Um, that's that's a really bold statement. Yeah.
it I appreciate the question. Um,
the um
The um, so again just give offer a little bit of procedural
back.
background on our ethics investigations. So we receive a
complaint that um, the city's ethics.
complaint that um, the city's ethics ordinance has been
violated then we there are a couple of different things.
violated then we there are a couple of different things we
can do with that complaint if we open an investigation,
conduct invest that investigation to a finding if we
sustain that allegation, we find that by prop.
sustain that allegation, we find that by proponents of the
evidence the violation has occurred then we send that case
to the city's Board of ethics and we ask that they find
probable.
probable cause to believe that the violation has occurred
if the board finds probable cause then the subject of the
investigation has an opportunity to come before the board
and rebut.
and rebut that finding if the board's finding of violation
persists then they will assess
persists, then they will assess a fine against the subject
of the investigation.
so that process um is something that um oig historically
did not undertake very often and I I candidly can't speak
entirely to why that is I I will say those cases are have a
higher.
higher procedural burden than our other investigations
because of all those steps, which I just described.
the fact of the matter is
The fact of the matter is it's my general view that that
railing.
railing against unethical behavior in city government is
not as good as enforcing the rules against it and so I
think in terms of why we have so many more we have that is
a that is a change in strategic.
a that is a change in strategic priority. We have
prioritized those cases, um, because
prioritized those cases. Um, because I think that that is
those are the rules the ethics rules are what stands
between us and a government that no 1 has any reason to
trust and so we have shifted priorities.
trust and so we have shifted priorities to the aggressive
enforcement of those rules.
Got it. Thank you. Um a lot of
Got it. Thank you. Um, a lot of my colleagues are already
sort of covered the many of the questions.
sort of covered the many of the questions that I had. Um,
Can can you go back?
Can can you go back to the slide where you had? Um, just a
breakdown of the number of uh cases that were or uh,
that were brought to you by various AUD
that were brought to you by various audiences. So it was a
hundred 1,85.
hundred 1,853 intakes in the fourth quarter that slide.
Excuse me.
Um
I'm I'm wondering how many of these complaints are coming.
in from the the public versus from within city government.
On the aggregate, you know, yeah.
That's a good question, which we don't answer in this
report. Um
report, um in part because a not insignificant number of
our intakes are Anonymous. Okay? Um,
our intakes are Anonymous. Okay, um for for good and
policy,
driven reasons, I think um, and so we don't report on
sources in terms of of the identity of the person making
the complaint we report on sort on on method of reporting
exact.
exactly. Um, I will say
In a sort of qualitative way every quarter we get intakes.
from city employees high level and Senior City employ,
excuse me, uh low-level.
excuse me, uh low-level and senior level city employees we
get reports from elected officials. We get reports from
members of the press. We get reports from members of the
public. Um, so we are certainly hearing from all of those
audiences in any given quarter. Well and I think to be
clear yours yours is an office that wants to hear from
everybody. Um and very much though. Yeah, um big or small
in terms of the infraction. So, um, I think that's not lost
and thank you for all the work that you and your team are
doing. Um, and
doing um, and appreciate the sort of strategic.
doing um, and appreciate the sort of strategic nature of
your thinking. Um, and uh, I'm glad you're in your
your thinking um, and uh, I'm glad you're in your position.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Yeah.
Yeah, I 1 question. I want to ask. Um, I think you'd
mentioned.
mentioned in the slides that there's been a 30% reduction.
uh in year old case counts Arielle.
uh in year old case counts relative to Prior years. Can you
share a little bit more?
share a little bit more about the steps? You took to help
achieve that?
Yes that has been a sort of 2 pronged effort 1 has been
around.
around Staffing. So I mentioned that that when we were
before you for our 2023 budget, we had added some
additional position.
additional positions those really were focused on in.
increasing our capacity, um for investigative work so that
some of those positions were in our investigation section
some of them were in
Some of them were in our legal section. Um, each of our
investigative teams is staffed by an investigator a chief
investigator on a lawyer so we needed more Capac.
investigator on a lawyer so we needed more capacity, um in
both of those places. So we've done that we've added
positions the second prong of that.
positions the second prong of that effort has been around
internal processing Improvement. And so we have made sure
that we have processes in place.
that we have processes in place to avoid cases aging on the
vine without adequate attention. So we have things like
required monthly updates monthly status updates from our
investigators. We have regular meetings with senior staff
to talk about aging cases to make sure we can kind of clear
roadblock.
roadblocks some some additional kind of internal
accountability.
accountability measures to keep those cases moving the fact
of the matter is some of the things we investigate are are
large and complex.
and they take a long time and I am happy to answer for
And they take a long time and I am happy to answer for long
investigative timelines where they are long.
investigative timelines where they are long because we have
a lot to do and they are complicated cases. Um what I what
I what we can't have is cases.
I what we can't have is cases that age on the vine
unattended.
Great any other questions?
Okay, seeing none. Um
Uh there being no further business before the committee.
Can I get a motion to adjourn?
ottoman
Almond Lawson. So moves all those in favor, please say I
all those opposed please say no in the opinion of the chair
the eyes.
the eyes have it. The meeting is adjourned. Thank you all
thank you General. Thank you very much.