Okay, I think we are.
We are good to start. Yes, we are wonderful. Well, good
morning, everybody. The committee on ethics and government
oversight. Will now come to order. We have 2 items on
today's agenda. First is a subject matter hearing on the
office of Inspector General's, quarterly report for the
fourth quarter of 2024. And second is a subject matter,
hearing on the oig's advisory concerning non-compliance
separation of water, mains and sewers, we are going to
begin with a roll. Call to establish Quorum. Please note
that your yes or present re
Response will be deemed a. Yes, vote. When this Quorum call
is used for a reference vote for later. Items, chairman
Martin is present, Vice chair Haden,
Alderwoman Lee Alderman. OSHA here alderwoman, Taylor
alderwoman sabaris, Alderman Talya, Ferro Alderman,
waguespack almond, pisado alderwoman, nen Alderman Vasquez
Alderman. Reilly Alderman Lawson. Okay. With 7 members
present. We have a quorum at this time. We will be begin.
Public, comment, the period is set for 30 minutes out of
respect for everyone's Time. Each speaker is limited to 3
minutes of public comment. Um, we will begin with Jasmine
Smith Miss Smith. If you can go to the microphone behind
you and start at your convenience.
Good morning.
Mike check.
Okay, so I am activist. Jasmine Smith, you guys know which
Chicago alliance against race and political repression. And
for the last couple of months, I've been down here, just
trying to
speak with the Alamos face to face and also the mayor and
anybody else who can hold officers accountable and that can
help me apply pressure to the attorney general, and the
governor to wake them up about the police misconduct here
and to get my loved ones and the rest of the people who've
been wrongfully, convicted by Sergeant, Brian P for a bird,
former Sergeant, but he's back up on the floor, somehow,
someway collecting his pension and still working as a
active. Um, some type of, uh, informing within the police
department after he, um, was forced to retire due to the,
um, exposure that me and my organization brought upon him
from wrongfully, convicted, 25, known survivors, right? So
him and his partners are still on the force. We got Kevin
Eberly. That is 1 of the detectives, or the FBI task force,
that's still on our Force getting paid. And then you have,
um,
John Foster, John Foster. He's a commander of area 5. All
of these officers are currently right now under
investigation, but still collecting the paycheck and for
bourbon, it really cost the city already 3.5 million into
wrongful convictions. Now, the city already know that we
the number 1 capital of Rome for convictions and um uh
torture survivors, and I'm just asking that these Ottomans
all of you all pay attention to what it is that we are
coming down here fighting for when it comes to
accountability and helping the people that still sitting
behind bars right now, that have folks convictions sitting
on the desk that you guys can move on by helping us, get to
the governor and helping us get to the attorney general.
Because the devil herself that's in right now that was
planted is taking us back generations of trying to keep
people that's innocent in prison other than finding the
real criminals and the and convict them. Chris telling,
Pharaoh, I know, uh, you are a pro, cop used to be a cop,
and you are on some of my survivors cases of investing
investigating with Kevin Eberly. So, you know, of these
detectives, you may not remember. It's part of being is
just work with them, but I'm asking for you to have a
meeting with us, like, we really need to help these people
that are interested. They don't make no sense that they
have to suffer in jail for things that they that they
didn't do. While the criminals are still wrong on our
streets. There's no Public Safety in that and our Broner
Survivor 1 of the survivors, 23 years, 4 months, 1 of my
longest survivors. Kevin Jackson is sitting in y'all face.
He been down here with me for the last couple of months.
This is serious and the city is going to have to pay more
and more money and a minute, y'all not going to be able to
be insured. Let's think about the math. Let's think about
the numbers. Let's think about these lives that y'all could
save and that y'all can Preserve.
Serve are doing the right thing, stop standing against us
and stand with us to get accountability of these officers,
who are doing wrong, who's causing the city, millions and
billions of dollars and lock them up. Charged them from the
crimes that they committed by kidnapping innocent people,
putting wrong cases up on them and let's do right by the
city. Stopped doing wrong. Stop selling us out. These
people have lived, they has kids and families to give
Thank you, Miss Smith. Want to recognize alderwoman nent
for purposes of quorum?
We also have a Jason Smith signed up. Wait you're again.
I need an agenda.
We will work on getting you an agenda, Mr. Blakemore right
now.
Noted, uh, is there a J Smith?
Okay, next is Jessica Jackson. Miss Jackson at your
convenience.
I'm gonna get that again before I speak and I'm gonna speak
and then inspect your general, right? Then we are printing
an agenda for you right now. Mr. Blakemore, I apologize for
not having it available now and if we could allow Miss
Jackson to, if we could allow Miss Jackson to speak
I can come back in.
I want to know. Just look at me.
This lady right here and she's up there.
With the huge spoke of Heaven again. Mr. Blakemore, I'd
kindly ask that you refrain from speaking so that we can
allow Miss Jackson to speak. Miss Jackson, please.
Oh, the United States of America.
as a
of of this city.
Uh, need to be informed about an agenda.
our right being
and I demanded.
Think where? Where are you?
Thank you.
And never let that happen again.
And lock you.
Fake news.
so,
Good morning, anyway.
So, as this is the oversight committee, you know it's very
interesting to be in this meeting.
After attending the uh, oversight committee meeting at DC.
On March 5th and just so you know Inspector General whisper
I was in the hearing.
I didn't just see it on TV, I was in the hearing.
And what I'm was, was got me baffled. Is that how our mayor
Brandon Johnson?
Could commit perjury like that.
About the money.
And what got me, even further puzzled is how he has
continued to lie since that time about the money.
And what's got me further puzzled is how the office of
Inspector General cannot do a thorough audit on him.
Now, I see what you put in the paper about him collecting
gifts and, uh, Lori Lightfoot. Not letting you get in, you
know, you can go deeper than that and you need to
Now, as it pertains to the ultimate, you all need to make
him resign.
He's unfit to serve that's clear. He has the approval rate
of 6.6% the lowest rate of any politician in the country
and for you all to allow him to continue to throw this
city. By financially in the dirt like this. Allow him to go
before Congress, raise his hand and swear to tell the
truth, under oath and lie about money, you know as
Inspector General.
That is not about no recall process and none of that when
people get found guilty about money.
now, if you all don't want to move forward to press a
resignation against him,
Then this is what I'm going to do because I didn't use no
plug.
To get me in that meeting.
The Republican Party Congressman wanted me in that meeting.
and if you all don't push for his resignation,
then what I'm going to request is that, that department of
justice investigation, that Congressman, Luna put up,
That for Pam Bondi to do.
That it go further that it extend to all the alderman.
To all the Cook County Commissioners to the office of
Inspector General. Y'all gonna do something besides letting
this city. Go to the grounds like this.
The Democratic party is breaking the law over and over and
over again. You need to take your concerns to the current
Administration. Donald Trump knows about corrupt courts.
Corrupt officers stop wasting your time with them. Get you
some results.
Thank you, Miss Jackson next. We have George. Blakemore,
Mr. Blakemore at your convenience?
Don't go there. This, this meeting is supposed to be about
ethics.
And it's supposed to be a dealing with the quarterly report
of dealing with with the water and the separation of the
sewage lines. So I asked for an agenda
So, some people, I guess when you get this mic, you can
talk about what you want.
so, uh, I understand the frustrations of my people when
they was talking about a 1 billion dollars with illegal
immigrants,
The press the pony press.
and, and the, the Inspector General was watching
She stating there watching and I asked for an agenda.
How can you have a meeting with our having other an agenda,
and want the people to be informed, and engaged, and
enlightened?
This this and you're not ethical but did you know young
man? What you have mastered you have mastered the king
English.
But you are failure as a public official.
The art of Engagement. You have no right to try to bully me
when I was asking for agenda, saying you keep quiet and let
Miss Jackson, talk know. I I stood my ground. I said you
get me an agenda.
And I want it now.
You all and it's terrible. Everyone that was sitting up
here. All of y'all are are responsible for what is going on
disgraceful in our city.
Maria hack, you have mastered, the art of of king English.
All of you all have mastered this art.
But you have not mastered the art of fairness.
You you all are racist.
What you mean that that man, Mr. Martin, he's black. He's a
racist. He, he knows. And he said, he, he, he knew exactly
that. I was supposed to have an agenda before this meeting
started.
He don't use no is an ants, but on the plantation, the
white man made an in
The the art of Engagement Maria, you see good English.
But but you're now good for black people and I saw some of
you running on the and looking under for Last Quest. Don't
You Know The Enemy is from your friend?
Don't, you know, your enemy from your friend. Hey, hey,
hey.
No, no, no, no. No. No, no. No. No. No, no, no, no.
Trump, when I told you to come down here and clean up the
swamp, I didn't say
Thank you, Mr. Blakemore
I want to acknowledge Alderman, spas and vice mayor,
for purposes of Quorum. Next up to Juan Sims Mr. Sims, if
you can come up at your convenience and then our final
public speaker is virtual
so, a few months ago, I came in and spoke about Maria
Haden,
Who has ran me out of my city? I also spoke about this in
front. What November 14th and what you all witnessed me
have a meltdown.
But I have to attribute that meltdown to you all to my
city, government, who is ignored? Like I told Brandon
Johnson, every plea call or cry
To be heard to be assisted with situation and Circumstance
that I'm dealing with.
The case, 2 3D, 79597 involves my small child, who I've
been removed from for now 2 years. It is now March March
23rd. 2023 was when I was, I have not seen my child since
that day and I only asked, and came to this committee and
the host of others. Well, to my city government,
To Aid me.
Miss wittberg.
the conversation that we just had briefly, and
I'm going to continue to have it with you.
Because I would like for you to utilize your the the the
officer Inspector General to Aid. Me, not only in handling
Irving, who feels that he can violate constitutional
rights.
But also to help me with getting back to my child or my
children.
Because I came in this room to fight for my life and it's
been more than a year now that I found myself fighting
against my city government.
The people that should be aiding me, helping me why I don't
understand.
I'm the least man in the room but I sit and speak the
power.
Of power that is counted me. Now, as the enemy for what
reason? I don't know.
Maria, had it.
I'm from Roger's Park, 30 years? I came from the Henry,
Hornet projects. I'm a different type of animal.
My grand. My mother raised me up my mother started, smoking
crack. That's what ended me on Morris Avenue but I survived
that
And I'm here to speak about it. I'm the testimony. I'm The
Testament to the fact that the wars hell hole was all a lie
and it was just a way to villainize children that needed
help individuals like me.
But you all have set yourself up to developers and all of
these individuals against a host of people.
Who need help.
Brandon Johnson says that he invested 20 times. The amount
that he has invested in the immigration or this new arrival
initiative, where is that amount at? Where does it show?
I'm from the north side of Chicago. The far, north side of
Chicago. The end of the line, go to my community, go into
my neighborhood. And let's see if that investment is there.
What is surround? Its it it shows out in the surrounding
communities.
Let's go to Rossland. Let's go to Englewood.
Ethics and government oversight. This man did Purge himself
and should be
forced to resign from his position as mayor of the city
recalled which will be historic. I'm saying officer about G
Miss witzburg. Let's make it happen, please.
Unethical, that's the word.
Thank you. Our last speaker is participating virtually
fukua.
Good morning.
As the Ethics Committee, your jurisdiction is over the
city's code of official conduct.
But we have seen too many times that members of the public
are held to a higher standard than members of the council
and the mayor's Administration.
I'm sure you remember the comic. You're a white
supremacist.
Didn't bring in brand Brandon's Administration removed the
video from the clerk's website. To cover up this unethical
act, the violated, the open meeting Act,
I guess that's the dictatorship that Cinco de Lopez is
always referring to.
But thank God that the city clerk was not a Dei higher and
that she understands the Constitution and didn't allow this
violation to continue.
The world witness Brandon commit, perjury several times in
front of the city a few weeks ago and not a word was said
from this body.
A man have to be a little off because I didn't have a
teacher like Brandon who didn't offer test prep and who has
never failed a kid but which explains the the results that
we're seeing from this Administration.
We have a 18 billion dollar budget. 1% of that would be 180
million.
It's well known that we spent 600 million on housing alone
for the migrants who won't even be here, much longer, so
that investment and people lying that he loves to use
benefit of Chicago in what way,
it is also unethical to benefit from a contract where you
appointed The Negotiator
He needs to officially resign from CPS or he can make help
make a safer better stronger, Chicago by resigning as
mayor.
It's your job to enforce and to call out unethical
Behavior. DTU only cares about increasing staff members to
increase revenue from dues to have more money to buy
campaign seeks. Just like they bought the mirror seat and
many of you sitting in the disgraced 50.
You remember what he text, Stacy, a word from the elders.
since Brandon Johnson refused to refer to Chicago as a
sanctuary City in front of the Congress and there should be
no problem bringing back the bill to remove that Sanctuary
status from our city.
Now, unlike many members of the disgraced 50, it's hard for
me to hear wrong to stay silent because silence is a form
of agreeance 2, members of the public were banned for
Comics as a tactic to shut out people in opposition of this
Administration. And we see a time and time again in every
press conference with discriminatory actions against
reporter. William J Kelly
But you have a member of this body, who has a long record
of nothing, but racist, Marxist, remarks and everything
comes out of his mouth. As a policy, he's still behind a
burning American flag. He called a member of this council
with derogatory name but he's allowed in this chamber time
and time again.
It's your job to make the standard and of course, the
standard before, the city is destroyed by Progressive
socialists from other countries.
Thank you. Uh that concludes our public comment. I do want
to note that the committee received 1 written public
comment from grow, greater Englewood, that public comment,
has been sent out to the committee members via email. Our
first order of business, is the rule 45 report from January
2025, which was distributed via email. Can I have a motion
to approve that report?
so I moved by alderwoman Haden all those in favor, signify
by saying, I
All those opposed say no in the opinion of the chair, the
eyes have it. We will now begin the subject matter here in
regarding oig's. Quarterly report for a fourth quarter of
2024. I'd like to introduce Inspector, General. Deborah
witzburg to provide brief remarks.
Good morning, chairman members of the committee. Thank you
very much for having me. I'm Deborah witzburg Inspector
General for the city of Chicago with apologies. I need this
unlocked so I can um sorry, thank you very much. Thanks for
your patience.
All right. Thank you very much.
Um, chairs. You mentioned. I will talk about our uh, fourth
quarter report for the the our quarterly report for the
fourth quarter of 2024. I appreciate the committee's
regular invitations to come before you and talk through
these quarterly reports. These are ordinance mandated
reports where we summarize the offices activity for the
quarter and where we publish de-identified summaries of our
ministry of misconduct investigations,
Uh, in the fourth quarter.
We reported 10 concluding administrative misconduct
investigations and the thread running through the
investigations that we reported were that these were
serious misconduct. Um we do a wide range of types of
Investigations at oig ranging from violations of the city's
residency rule to Serious abuses of of positions of public
trust and everything in between um
The sort of driving force behind our investigative report.
Our investigative work reported in this, fourth quarter is
the notion that it is a tremendous privilege to work in the
public service. And that serious misconduct
Renders people ineligible for that privilege. Um that those
who abused the public trust ought not continue to enjoy the
privilege of working in the public service. So of the 10
administrative investigations, which we reported we
recommended either termination for people still working for
the city or referral for placement on the ineligible for
rehire list, for people who had already left the city
Service uh in 7 of 10 of those cases.
um, with respect to our intakes, you we have we have
discussed here before our centralized intake function um
where the office takes in information that comes to us in a
wide variety of forms. Um and we have an opportunity to
take sort of an interdisciplinary view of that information
to see which of our various oversight capacities, might be
best suited to address a problem raised by an intake. In
the fourth quarter, we received 1745 intake,
Down slightly from 2053 in the third quarter, uh, as is
usually the case most of our intakes, come by email,
although we are cognizant of the fact that not all
Chicagoans who might wish to reach us with information.
Have ready access to email? We also accept complaints in a
wide range of other forms, including uh telephone our web
portal letter, Etc.
We self-initiated 101 intakes. We are specifically
empowered by our ordinance to do so and so we will
sometimes initiate our own intake based on information, we
learn in some in the course of some other inquiry or that
we observe in in our interactions with city government or
in the news Etc.
During this quarter, we had 278 open and active misconduct
investigations of which 112 had been opened more than 12
months. That's the same number as the third quarter. Um,
the subjects of our investigations are are, as you see
here. So um, these are not these are not unique
investigations necessarily, um, because 1 person might be
the subject of more than 1 investigation, but of the 200,
in the, in the 278 active investigations. 231 subjects are
city employees. 19 are elected officials 17 are contractors
subcontractors and people seeking contracts 3 are City
licenses. 1 is an appointed official and 7 fall into some
other category. We've talked briefly about this before, um,
that other category includes although is not necessarily
limited to members of the public who violate the city's
ethics ordinance, the city's ethics ordinance, may be
violated.
Ated by a city employee, or official, or by a member of the
public attempting to give, um, giving or attempting to give
an improper gift or a bribe to a city official. Um, if a
member of the public gives an improper gift or a bribe to a
city official, both the giver and the recipient of that
improper gift or bribe have violated the ethics ordinance,
and 1 of the new practices, we have adopted over the last
number of years, in pursuit of more aggressive enforcement
of the city's ethics rules is to pursue those members of
the public. Um, and so those are those categories of cases
are among those reflected in that other category?
so,
Um, I mentioned, we reported 10 sustain, administrative
investigations in this quarter and and among those were the
ones selected here.
Um, we reported on a department of building electrical
inspector, who accepted an improper gift from a contractor,
a department of streets Ward superintendent, who attempted
to sell an illegal machine gun on the clock using City
Vehicle.
in oemc, police Communications operator, who, um,
Violated The Residency rule fraudulently obtained, a PPP
loan and made false statements to oig.
um,
a PBC commissioner. Uh, I'll note quickly on PBC the um oig
has a memory memorandum of understanding with the city's
public building commission which allows us to function as
Inspector General for the PBC. They are. As you all know,
course, 1 of the, the city's sister agencies and pursuant
pursuant to our mou with them, we fulfill all of the
functions for the PBC that we we fulfill for other 4 City
departments in that capacity. We investigated allegations
and sustained allegations that a PBC commissioner used
their position to exert improper influence uh in favor of a
company in which they had a financial interest that PBC
commissioner further failed to cooperate with oig in the
course of that investigation.
We sustained allegations that various members of the fire
department, falsified reports made false statements to the
police department and took other actions to provide what
they described to us as a professional courtesy to a fire
department, supervisor, who was found slumped over the
wheel of a car.
And finally uh of those selected. Here, we investigated a
former Chicago Police Department member who fraudulently
obtained. Um, 2 different kinds of pandemic relief loans,
PPP loan and an eidl loan as well as uh Housing Voucher
assistance, to which they were not entitled and made false
statements to the police department in the course of their
application process. Um, we've talked a couple of times
about these, these pppp,
Loan fraud cases.
by way of a quick, um,
sort of a quick rehash of that we uh, early in the
Early in the aftermath of the PPP loan uh program. We
conducted a proactive data analysis. We determined that we
did not because of the scale of that program and the risk
of fraud inherent in its lack of controls rather than wait
for and rely upon individual reactive tips and complaints
about about possibly fraudulent PPP loans among City.
Actors, we wanted to take a more proactive approach to try
to get a better handle on the whole universe of potentially
fraudulent PPP loans issued to people under our
jurisdiction, motivated by the basic principle that people
don't get to both defraud, the government and be government
employees.
So we conducted that proactive data analysis on all of the
data uh made available by the small business administration
for all of the loans issued at a national level. We
identified about a thousand loans.
That had been issued to people under oig's jurisdiction.
Um,
We certainly not all of those loans are fraudulent. Many of
them have some indicia of fraud. Um some of those we are
will continue to pursue criminally others of them. We are
pursuing administratively as you have seen in the last
number of quarters. As we have reported these
Investigations out as they conclude, that is a large-scale
effort by virtue of our having started with that sort of
large scale. Proactive data analysis, we will continue to
report these cases out as they as they conclude,
uh, out of our Public Safety section. We published this
quarter, a follow-up evaluation of a report we did on the
Chicago, Police Department's, post firearm discharge
policy. So as you all know, in both our Public Safety
section and our audit and program review. Section our
regular practice is that we will publish a report which
includes findings recommendations and responses from the
City Department of study.
And then some period of time later depending a bit on the
complexity of the topic Etc. We will do a follow-up report
where we will go back to our recommendations and the
Department's response, and we will look for the status of
corrective actions that that have been made as responsive
to our recommendations. So our original report on, uh, on
cpd's, post firearm discharge policy
looked at the set of of police department rules, which
require members to complete several steps after they have
discharged their firearm before returning to, to regular
field duties.
Those rules. Those requirements post firearm discharge
requirements, include a minimum of 30 days. On
administrative Duty members, who have discharged their
firearm have been required to participate in. What's called
a traumatic incident, stress Management program, or tism,
that includes a trauma, debriefing with cpd's, professional
counseling division.
Members are also required to attend a critical incident
overview training and to complete. Any other training
curriculum that's developed by cpd's Training Division that
may include an individualized training, curriculum designed
for, for a specific member.
um, CPD reports that these requirements are designed to
minimize the chance that officers will suffer from the
negative emotional and psychological reactions that can
occur after a firearm discharge incident. And I think that
really underscores the importance of this particular topic,
these are the systems that CPD has in place to ensure that
after someone is forced to discharge their firearm in the
conduct of their duties, that they are equipped to return
to work in a way that is safe for them, and for the members
of the public with whom they will interact. So
Our original report, I'm sorry for the density here. There's
a lot of information. So apologies for the ugliness of that
slide um in our original inquiry, we found that CPD was not
in full compliance with its own, with its rules on on post
firearm discharge practices and that internal controls
around ensuring compliance with the rules were inadequate.
So, uh, we found insufficient policies and procedures and
poor documentation, um, around members completion of the
requirements. We found that a lack of compliance with the
rules, led to some members returning to regular Duty
without having satisfied, all of the requirements, um,
requirements, um, which potentially putting themselves and
others at risk, in light of what we know about the purpose
and the intention of the of the requirements in the first
place.
We found that CBD is returned to duty process was not
structured to meet members needs in an individualized or
timely manner. The rules set out this possibility for an
individualized curriculum. And I think that speaks to the
reality that
All firearm discharge incidents are different, different
members, have different needs Etc. And so I think there is
an allowance for and an acknowledgement of the need for
individualized response. Um, but but that is not 1 that the
program is well, structured to meet not, not a need that.
It's the department is well equipped to meet. We found that
this last lack of individualized And Timely training has
led to inefficiencies in the process among them that some
members remain on administrative leave for longer than the
prescribed 30 days. So, they're required to be
administratively a minimum of 30 days. And until they have
completed, the requirements of the post firearm discharge
policy where those requirements are not made available. In
a timely manner members, may be unmistakably for in some
cases much longer than the 30 days. Um,
Among other impacts at an individual level, I think that's
certainly has Staffing implications for the Department. If
people are unavailable to work on the street for longer
than longer than would be necessary.
um we made a series of recommendations around the practices
and policies in the post firearm discharge rules to address
these these shortcomings and we found in our follow-up that
CBD had. In fact implemented some of the corrective actions
we recommended although although not all of them,
So, briefly here.
Status on corrective actions. We found that CBD had
implemented or updated its notification procedures. Um, to
better ensure that members were aware of and had access to
and had completed uh, the various return to duty
requirements. The department had not yet finalized, its
standard operating procedures or built an automated
application to track the requirements. Um, it has
implemented an application to track the tism program
specifically but not any of the other components of the, of
the requirements.
Uh, CBD has consulted with other jurisdiction and has resi
revised. Some of its training materials, including by
adding a new course on tactical training, the department
had not yet implemented, the individualized trainings based
on specific members experiences, which we discussed
We found that the department does not use documents does
not use records from previous firearm discharges to inform
the tism program and to address potentially unique trauma
experiences. The the issue here is that for those members
who have been involved in more than 1 firearm discharge.
There may be
Individualized needs again, around the goals of this
program, to ensure that those members are well equipped to
return to work in a way that is safe for them. And for the
people with whom they were in, they would interact. And we
found that the department does not currently sort of
accommodate information about previous,
uh, firearm discharge incidents.
Um,
we found finally, that the department has reviewed reasons
why most members remain on administrative Duty. Remain off
the street for longer than the 30 days, uh, including
Staffing and scheduling challenges, around those
components, that they are required to complete. Um, but the
department has failed to identify measures to improve the
timeliness of those processes. I think this is sort of good
news in progress. So we talk often about the fact that we
cannot improve what we cannot study. And so I do think that
the Department's review of these of these causes of delay
is an important First Step. The next step is would be to
identify measures to to improve the problem.
The other statutory mandated function, statutorily,
mandated function of our Public Safety section. As you all
know, is to review individual closed, police misconduct
investigations conducted by the Bureau of internal affairs.
And by Coppa the civilian office of police accountability.
The statutory purpose for that review by our Public Safety
section is twofold. The first is to make recommendations to
inform and improve future. Disciplinary investigations. The
second is to identify any of those closed misconduct
investigations, which we believe have a material, a
deficiency materially affecting their outcome. That's the
The standard set out in the law and where we identify that
sort of deficiency 1 which we believe materially affects
the outcome of an investigation. We recommend to either
Coppa or Bia to the original investigating agency that,
that case be reopened
so, in the fourth quarter,
the unit of our office conducting that work examined, 250
closed, disciplinary cases, and conducted an in-depth
review of 19 of them among those that we report among the
recommendations to reopen that we report out in the fourth
quarter is the 1.
Copa investigated allegations that a police department
member made unwanted physical contact and verbally abused a
complainant.
Copa wrote in its final report that it had reviewed,
bodyworn camera footage and had never heard. The accused
member use a derogatory term, a specific derogatory term at
issue in the complaint, we reviewed the body warn camera
footage. And in fact found several recorded examples of the
accused member using that derogatory term. We recommended
the Copa reopen, the investigation to consider all of the
available evidence Copa did did reopen the investigation,
pursuant to that recommendation, sustained an allegation
that the accused member used profanity when speaking to the
complainant and as a result of having reopened and
considered the additional evidence recommended a 5-day
suspension.
Uh, other products coming from elsewhere in the office, from
our other oversight functions. We sent a notification to
the Department of Human Resources on the city's firearms
and violence in the workplace policies. These are 2
separate policies, which live side by side, um 1 dealing
specifically with firearms and with um city employees
committing firearm related offenses. The other is a broader
violence in the workplace policy.
Those policies were enacted at different times and our read
of them suggests that there is some ambiguity between them,
about the circumstances under which city employees. May
carry firearms on the clock and the circumstances under
which use or possession of a firearm constitutes prohibited
violence in the workplace. I think this is a problem of the
policy is not sort of speaking to each other, ideally not
being entirely internally consistent and so we sent some
recommendations to DHR to um, render those policies more
internally consistent. Um, second here we send a
notification on records retention at the Council Office on
on financial accountability. Um,
The we sometimes send these sorts of notifications. We
think of them as sort of management alerts in the course of
a longer term project. If in the course of a longer term
project, we identify a problem which we believe needs
fixing before we might reach our ultimate findings and
recommendations, we will issue an interim recommendation
and that's what, that's what we did here. When we found in
the course of a longer term inquiry that Kofa may not be
operating in compliance with the local records act that.
Is to say in in compliance, with the rules around, how long
and how long certain categories of City Records, much must
be kept.
Um we have a unit of the office within our legal section
that is devoted to monitoring employment actions again, as
you all know, this is the remaining monitoring work that
survives in city government after the city's substantial
compliance with the shakman decree. So the remaining
responsibilities of ensuring that the city continues to
follow the rules set out in its employment plan lives. In
our that that responsibility lives in our legal section, in
in our Compliance Unit um that unit conducts work, pursuant
pursuant to the city's employment plans. Um, some of that
is mandated regular review. Some of it is discretionary
with an oig's determination among the the employment
monitoring work we did in the first fourth quarter was to
review reports of political contacts around hiring
processes. We reviewed a senior manager, higher. We looked
at a grievance resolution related to employment plan
procedures. Specifically, we reviewed proposed
modifications to minimum job, qualifications. I'll just say
a little bit more briefly on this.
The city's rules say that all positions in city government
are to have written minimum job qualifications. I think
there has historically been some confusion around whether
that requirement applies to what are commonly called
shakman exempt positions. Um, this is certainly an area,
which I think Bears some clarification the city. The as you
all know, 1 of the things that issue in the shakman
litigation was the was the consideration of political
factors in City, hiring decisions, whether city, jobs and
City promotions were being given to people, not based on on
their qualifications, for those, but rather on their
political affiliations.
Um, and political loyalties.
So the general rule for positions in city government is
that political factors may not be considered in the
employment process. There are certain positions in city
government, which are designated as shackman exempt. And
what that means and all that that means is that political
factors may be considered in the hiring and promotion
processes. For those positions, it does not mean that none
of the city's hiring rules, apply to those positions. And
so, shackman, exempt positions, like all positions in city
government are subject to the other requirements of the
employment, plan, including the existence of minimum job,
qualifications. And that is to ensure that people who are
in positions of public, trust doing City work are
appropriately, qualified to do so.
um, that comes to rest here, because 1 of the requirements
of the employment plan has to do with notice to and review
by oig, when there are modifications to minimum job
qualifications,
We audited 4 hiring sequences across 3 City departments.
That is an after the fact audit of the paperwork associated
with the process that is related but different from the
monitoring, which we do in this quarter, we monitor 11
here, sequences across 7 City departments, that is
real-time ongoing monitoring as a process continues where
we will attend consensus meetings. For example, we will
observe interviews Etc to make sure that those things are
happening according to the appropriate procedures.
Um,
Chairman with that, I'd be happy to take questions on the
quarterly report. Um thank you, we will open it up to
questions from committee members alderwoman Manhattan.
Well, I was waiting for our next slide. What, what came out
of the audit of of the 3 City departments? Uh, those are
reported regularly we generally do not find um,
Those are individual positions, right? And and we often
find no violations. And we make no recommendations where we
find violations of the higher plan rules. That might be
something like um the wrong attendees at a consensus
meeting or missing notes or that sort of thing and where we
find those, we recommend corrective actions to the
department and we report those specifically got you
Thank you.
Thank you Alderman waguespack, followed by Alderman, spas?
Good morning. Inspector General. Um,
On 1 of the slides, you had the PBC commissioner using
improper influence for financial interests or financial
gain. Um, when there's a lack of cooperation, from a, from
a PBC commissioner, what is your
um,
what are the consequences for that? Was a, a very good
question. Um, which leads to a very unsatisfying answer?
The public building commission has its own ethics rules, as
a sort of set as a, as a sort of separate government
entity, of course, as are the other sister agencies, it has
its own code of ethics.
Um, that set of Ethics rules, lays out violations. It does
not lay out sanctions for commissioners.
and so, when we found, when in that investigation, a
violation of the ethics rules around
Broadly conflict of interest Provisions. Um, we recommended
to the PBC that they assess appropriate sanctions um,
Their response notes. That there are, no, there are no
Provisions for sanctions in the pbc's. Ethics rules?
So, who is the head of the PBC?
Not maybe the particular person but who is uh, the chair or
or whose designated as the chair, there's a PBC staff,
including an executive and then there's the Commissioners,
there are the Commissioners. So the Commissioners are
generally appointed by the mayor
And I believe that. That's right. Although I I'm not
certain of all the details for that process. Yeah. Some of
them are appointed by the mayor. The mayor is uh, on that
PBC board as well, right? Um, in in next video capacity.
Yeah, so pretty much if I'm not mistaken, maybe if somebody
can correct me, everybody has appointed to that board.
I believe, that's right. Okay. So um
Could you make a recommendation that to that board? That
they
Make changes and make appropriate. Are you saying that you
recommended some sanctions or are you recommended?
For the future. That if anybody violated something, there
they should draft sanction policies.
Um in this particular case we found violations of the rules
rules as well as violations of the of the mou around
failure to cooperate. We noted in our report that the PBC
code of ethics does not address sanctions for Commissioners
who violate the code. And so our recommendation to the PBC,
to the executive director um, was to provide the summary
report to the chairman of the board. And, and we
recommended discipline against the subject in a matter that
the PBC deter.
Determined to be appropriate. We further recommended that
the PVC amend its code of ethics, to remedy this failure to
address. Commissioner misconduct our response from the PBC
Neither agreed nor disagreed with our findings of
misconduct um and was silent altogether on our findings.
Against this particular subject, the PBC agreed that the
code of ethics as written, does not provide for any
sanctions for Commissioners, who violate the code.
Um,
and uh,
The, the response for the reflects, a recommendation that
the Board of Commissioners should consider an amendment to
the code of ethics. I have not, I don't have more updated
information than that, as to, whether they have undertaken
that but that is reflected in their response, okay? And so
they, uh, they operate under their own code of ethics. That
is separate from the city, that's correct. But if the
people that are serving as a appointees are elected
officials, shouldn't they be beholden to the board of eth
or the, the ethics rules of the city? So, there's 2
separate. So some of them are all Alderman. Some are City
commissioners.
I don't know what the breakdown is right now. I haven't
looked at it, but wouldn't those same people be beholden to
the overall City, ethics plan it, it might depend on their
position, so some of them. Yes. Um, the not everyone, not,
everyone, that's right.
And so the person who committed that act is not a city
official per se, I'll say that, that person was subject to
the pbc's code of ethics and not to the city of Chicago,
not to the city 1. Okay. So um,
I just wanted to tie in, um,
So, your Authority only.
In that case.
would extend if, if 1 of those other elected officials or
appointees that works for this, the actual City and not
some Corporation or other outside entity, um, you would be
able to hold them accountable.
In some way.
Yes. If there is a a city employer official, who is
otherwise subject to City personnel rules, or to the city's
governmental, ethics ordinance then. Yes. Okay. Um, you and
I have, uh, talked before about, you know, there's there
has to be a cooperation. There has to be, um, consequences
for these other entities. So we we've talked about the
police district councils for instance.
Where I am having. And I know other people are having
serious difficulties with some of the elected officials
there that are working that are also violating, um,
Ethics roles.
Committing violent conduct, uh, threats abuse of authority,
ethics violations, abuse of City resources. I mean, the
list kind of goes on.
um, what do you recommend that we do where we have these
types of situations that seem to fall to the knot to the
Wayside because I know you've tried at least on this PBC 1
to make recommendations.
Now, we have to wait for the PBC to actually do something.
the chairman should be doing something in a, um,
maybe I should look and see who the chairman is, but I
thought it was the mayor.
and,
It is the mayor and several other appointees. So um what
recommendations do you make to the council members here to
follow through on?
activities that are detrimental to everyone in this city
whether you're a constituent of any of ours of anyone in
the city of taxpayer and employee, who is harassed
threatened. Um,
Or or abusing their authority to get financial gain. Um,
and I know that's pretty broad, but how are we supposed to
tackle these issues and who is ultimately responsible to
make those recommendations and force that change?
I appreciate this question. I agree that this is very broad
but it's an this is an important question. We got about 2
hours, just kidding, no worries. I'd rather be um
the way I think about this issue is that we have many
different sources of rules but the same rules. Don't apply
to everybody who holds a position of public. Trust. For
example. Um, the city has a governmental ethics ordinance
which of course as you know, applies to all city employees
all elected and appointed officials Etc.
Certain kinds of conduct are prohibited by the ethics,
ordinance, by no means. All misconduct.
Um the ethics ordinance, simply does not reach everything
which we would. I think collectively understand to be
misconduct in city government. There are some sort of
catchall or or rules in the ethics ordinance that are
susceptible to a broad reading. For example, there's an
obligation to act as a fiduciary that reaches again some
but not all acts of misconduct. Um,
the city also has Personnel rules which apply to
Some, but not all of the city's. 35, some odd thousand
employees. Um, for example, the Personnel rules, do not
apply to have not been read to apply to members of the
police department. They do not apply to Alders, um, and so
that leaves very wide swaths of conduct which are, which is
governed in some city employees but not in others.
Um and then you know the same would apply for people. Like
for example, the district counselors that is a position
which came about after all of these sets of rules were
enacted. I think there is probably just some kind of square
peg. Round hole retroactive application problem here but
District counselors um are elected officials. They are
subject to the ethics ordinance. They are not subject to
the Personnel rules. So all of that misconduct, or alleged
misconduct, which we investigate in city employees,
pursuant to violations of the Personnel rules. We have no,
no meaningful investigative or enforcement Authority when
it comes to people to whom the Personnel rules, don't
apply. So that is all to say. Apologies for the length of
the answer here that is all to say the way I have tried to
think about this is that we need to. I think take a pretty
broad landscape view of which sets of rules We Believe
which people should be subject to.
Okay.
Uh, ditto what Mr? Blakemore said, thank you. Um,
um,
so,
is this something that, um, you know, we have the board of
Ethics, we have the director, you know, Steve Berlin, we
have the HR department. Um, 1 of the things that you were
at a meeting that we had for the Do Not rehire list and it
sounded like you were
Uh collaborating with HR and probably the Law Department to
amend that do not hire language. Yes. So that's 1 aspect of
some of these things that would hit here. Is that something
that? Um, do you do you meet with them? Or are you thinking
you thinking about meeting with them regularly to say look,
we have these loopholes that people are are, um,
following through or direct or deliberately, you know doing
things to get through it or avoid any kind of um sanctions
in this case PBC is that something that you have considered
or that you do, yes. Um we do meet regularly and we have
been meeting regularly with exactly those entities. You
identify on the ineligible for rehire policy. Specifically.
I will say, I know this is something that has been of
concern to you. You and I have talked about this, the
ineligible for rehire policy contains. No sister agency
reciprocity at all. Um, so despite the fact that I think
there are lots of opportunities for information sharing,
among agencies, all of which operate under the control of
the mayor, um, that is not in place currently. And so, I
think that is an important accountability Gap.
Um, another thing that is sort of on our Collective agenda
with probably that same group of City, departments is an
examination of the Personnel rules. It has been a long
time. Since Chicago's Personnel rules were I think,
meaningfully example, examined for content and I think that
there is some updating their to do probably both in terms
of the specific prohibited conduct in the rules, as well as
scope of application. The Personnel rules are and I you
know this I think this happens with policies over time,
they are um all at once too broad and much too narrow in
terms of what is actually prohibited and to whom they
apply. So I think those things are are very much on the
horizon.
Thank you. Uh yeah, I was just thinking last comment. Um,
when you worked on that, do not rehire with the other and,
you know, bodies, uh, and we were talking about, you know,
whose ultimate release ultimately responsible, if something
happens, for instance, in the mayor's office and it's the
chief of staff or the mayor that would impose any kind of
um, Personnel changes or sanctions or anything, or
enforcement, and it just seems like this PVC situation
falls into that same kind of rubric. So something to, uh,
for us to work on and and see if we can make change their.
Thank you very much agreed. Thank you. Thank you. Uh 2
quick questions before we kick it over to Alderman. Sado 1
I recall it that and ineligible for rehire hearing that you
and commissioner Blake Moore had indicated, you envisioned
envisioned finishing up, your work on reviewing, uh, that
broader issue by the end of Q.
1 of this year. Uh, do you have any updates in terms of
timeline, are you specifically or do you think that that's
still 1, you all will hold to
um,
I'm cognizant of the fact that it's March 18th in the end
of the quarter is in is in 2 weeks. Um,
I'm not sure whether that will be in that will be out of
the hands of that group by March 31st, but I do know that
that process is well underway and there are drafts being
circulated. So I do think that there has been substantial
progress made on that effort.
Okay, I think, um, whenever that work completes with the
current phase, we'll have you back here. Um, so just note
that. Um, and then second, I think it would be helpful. If
you could through the chair, uh, send a, a short memo or a
letter that with a little bit more specificity details
issues involving um, Personnel rules, what does and doesn't
apply across the various entities? Um, I I think that's
something that this committee on several occasions has
expressed interest in and I would be curious to know, um,
from your offices perspective, is this something that could
or should happen organically versus potentially members of
this Community Committee introducing legislation to mandate
that that conversation in a set of recommendations be
shared publicly. Um, so if you could provide something
through the chair that outlines your opinions that would be
helpful. Absolutely. And just specifically on the the
question of to whom the Personnel rules, apply.
that's right, but if you want to use your discretion in
opining beyond that including um not just what applies to
whom but what should uh that would be helpful as well
understood will do. Thank you. Thank you, almond pisado.
Followed by Alderman, Lawson. Thank you chairman. Thank
you. Inspector General for the very thorough report. I have
couple questions early on you. You you threw some numbers
out there, I think like 231 and 19 and that was a rose Kern
investigation or the rose complaints for investigation.
Um, let me go back to the slide and make sure that I have
the right number here. So in the fourth quarter we have
here's your second or third page. Oh I can see it but you
can't so sorry. We have 278 active misconduct
investigations in the in the fourth quarter and about 2,000
intakes in the quarter. So so it's about 10% of them uh
bring investigations because if I think I remember my mind
serves me correct, it's either you or your predecessor
said, basically of the complaints only about less than 10%.
I think and investigation comes from it. That number has
changed somewhat over time because we get many, many many,
many more intakes than we used to. Um, that number has gone
up very sharply over the last couple of years. I will say,
I think that is a good news story. I I think we get more
intakes, not because more things are going wrong and city
government but because more people know who we are and what
we do and where to find us. Um so as a percentage that
number has changed a bit over time. We have we have a
larger staff than we used to, we have more open
investigations than we used to but
The underlying observation is Right a, a relatively small
percentage of intakes actually result in open, active
misconduct investigations. So that brings me to my next
question. So we mentioned the amount of complaints but I'm
just guessing, I just know, being on the northwest side
There's a individual out there that's constantly
complaining about something, so I'm guessing, what do you
my question would be I guess, what do you do with?
The Chronic.
Complainers or complaint fileer? I mean, did they do? We
do, we take all of these serious that they do? I mean, if
some guy is regularly filing ethics complaints against
certainly 3 of us under the northwest side, I mean, we do
we take these people serious or do we like yeah, every
complaint we have to take them serious.
We have some specific policies which we lay out in the
quarterly report for complaints, which we don't process.
And those include categories. Like, for example, um,
Nobody except maybe those of us in city government get
faxes anymore. But, you know, it used to be, you would
sometimes find on your fax machine like a, you want a
cruise flyer so we get sort of those sorts of
communications to our intake unit. We don't process those.
Those are not intakes. Um we have there are some other
kinds of communications which are kind of obviously not
susceptible to further processing but as a general rule, we
process all of the intakes now you're right. Not all of
those are ones which we find credible or actionable or
which will lead to further work. Um, but
But we spend a lot of time out in Chicago's neighborhoods
asking people to tell us what they are about and what they
think we should be worried about. We only know what people
tell us and I, I, I prioritized trying to ensure that we
spend our oversight resources in a way, which reflects what
is of most concern to Chicagoans? And so that is all to
say. Um,
We are here to hear what people tell us, that doesn't mean
that we take action on all of. Yeah, so you just take them.
you put them in a system and that could be the end of it,
we review them. And that's right. And we don't take action
on all of them. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Uh,
chairman, this is a point of personal privilege since this
is the Ethics Committee. I'm not a, I'm not sure that
everybody is aware, but Lisa eers from the ethics board is
retired. So I just want to make sure you all know. I don't
know how many of our friends with Lisa. If you want to give
her a call, I'll let her know and thank her for her
service. It might be a nice gesture but that's it. Thank
you chairman. Thank you very much, almond Lawson.
Thank you chair. Uh, some of my questions are asked. So uh,
I just have a couple others. Um,
Thank you general woodsburgh for your report. Again, it's
always very enlightening. I I have a question about
checkman exempt and minimum job qualifications because
other than being, a resident of the city and getting
fingerprinted, I don't know that. We have them. Uh, for
shackman exempt positions, is that a document, you can
share with us through the chair. The requirement of the
minimum job qualifications. Absolutely. It is much more
than the fingerprints and The Residency requirement it. It
is indeed good. Um, the minimum, the job qualifications
themselves are unique to each City title. The requirement
That City positions have minimum qualifications lives in the
the employment plan. I can certainly provide the important
plan, right? So the other piece of that too is in my head.
Chapman exempt means that they are not covered by a union
either.
Is that also true? Or is there some cases where you'd be
shakman exempt but still a member of ask me or or another?
Um, I think it is probably almost always the case that a
position which is shakman exempt is non-represented but
those things are independent. So the fact that they often
coincide is really due to the fact that many, although not
all shackman exempt positions are sort of senior level
upper level management positions. And those are unlikely to
be Union represented but whether or not an employee is
Union represented does not. It's is not itself.
Determinative in any way of of whether that position is
shakman exempt or the other way around, right? Okay, okay.
Um,
I'm a little concerned about the firearm policy, not being
clear because I think, if any policy should be a firearm
policy, should be agreed. Um, is there a situation where
someone other than a member of the Chicago? Police
Department, should be carrying a firearm. Do we allow
concealed, carry for city employees right now? There are
job descriptions outside of the Chicago Police Department,
which include, um,
Being armed on the clock. There are for example, security
specialists in other in non-police, City departments, who
are for whom in the job specification, you know, is listed
being armed on the job, a public way. Inspector should not
be carrying a weapon during work hours.
Yes, generally, yes, or maybe that's what we need to
clarify. Well, I, I agree that this is an area of some
concern, which is why we sort of took this on the, um,
interestingly, I think, in some similar ways that we talked
about with the Personnel rules, the Firearms policy is very
Broad in some ways and quite narrow in others. And so, I
think, especially on in, on an area, which is so important,
I think, from a public safety and Trust in government
perspective, um, and against the backdrop of evolving
Firearms laws in the state. This is an important. This is
an important area to get, right?
This is not the first employee, we've seen selling guns on
City time either.
Why that needs to be clarified is shocking to me but um
thank you for the work there. Um
I guess just the last question I have is, um,
There are 19 electrons underway and I'm just sort of
curious when you investigate an elected official. Um, are
they off? Is there a percentage? Or maybe this is true of
any investigation who comes with an attorney?
Um like to an interview. Yeah, with the office you're gonna
you're gonna chat with me about an issue that came up and
how many of how many of the elected officials or people
that you interview? Generally bring attorneys to that
interview.
Every subject of an oig investigation is entitled to
personal representation in an oig interview. So the person,
the subject of an investigation is entitled by law and by
our practice to have their lawyer in the room.
The city is not entitled to have. The mayor is not entitled
to have his lawyers in the room, but the subject is um,
many but not all subjects, come with an attorney Union
represented interviewees are also entitled to bring a union
representation to to bring a union representative if they
wish. So sometimes people will bring 1 or the other of
those, they'll bring either a lawyer or a union rep.
Sometimes people will bring both, sometimes people will
bring neither
But nobody is being represented by the Law Department in
that setting.
Oig has not during my Administration permitted. The Law
Department to rep, representing the city to sit in on oig
investigative interviews, okay?
Great. I think that's all I have. Thank you chair. Thank
you Alderman. Want to recognize Alderman, Cardona. Uh
non-committee member, thank you for joining. Uh, my 1
question. Before we have the water department come up, um,
his oig finalized, its audit plan for the year. Uh, I
anticipate that going out by the end of this month, okay?
And want to, reiterate something that's come up in Prior
hearings, which is, um, to the extent that
Audit plan and anything uh, adjacent to that can be budget
related. Uh, this committee would very much. Welcome your
office's input and recommendations. Absolutely, thank you,
great. Um, we will now begin the subject matter hearing
regarding oi's advisory concerning non-compliance
separation of water mains. I would invite our 2
Representatives uh from the water department to come. We
will introduce you shortly. Um, but once you are settled,
we'll ask you General witzburg to uh present your remarks
on the topic.
Moved in here.
All right. Um, if we can get the slides back up, that would
be great.
Thank you.
All right. Thank you again. Chair members of the committee.
Deborah witzburg. Inspector General for the city of
Chicago.
Um, I will talk briefly here and then I will defer to the
Department of Water Management. Uh, about our an advisory
that oig has issued concerning non-compliance separation of
water manes and sewers in the city.
Uh, in December of 2024, we wrote to the Department of Water
Water Management to notify them of concerns about a lack of
public transparency on what we identified to be a matter of
important, quality of life and health and safety,
implications for Chicago.
specifically that is we learned that the Department of
Water Management has been engaged in a years-long effort to
address extensive work, extensive Water and Sewer main
construction under under the city streets, which fails to
comply with iepa rules. On mandatory, minimum separation
between water mains and sewers. That is there are rules
which address how far apart a drinking water line must be
from a sewer line.
Um, our concern here was our determination that the
Department of Water Management has not meaningfully
communicated with the public about this underlying issue
its attendant risks and the remedial efforts that are
underway, we believe that this compromises transparency and
deprives Chicagoans of the ability to take well-informed
risk mitigation steps if necessary. And to be clear, we'll
talk more about this. And I I hope that the Department of
Water Management will offer better informed and more
detailed information about this. But the primary concern
driving our inquiry. Here is a lack of public transparency
around an area of risk. That is to say we did not identify
specific. Um,
You know, dangers present day dangers, in the water supply.
Um, but our concern here is motivated by the notion that
Chicagoans are entitled to information about a big and
expensive, and potentially risky problem. So a little bit
context on the ieepa separation standards title, 35 of the
the Illinois, Administrative Code establishes environmental
regulations which include these rules on mandatory minimum
separation of water and sewer infrastructure.
The separation between water mains and Sewer lines is meant
to mitigate the risk of drinking water contamination.
Practical advantages. Um, also include an ease of access
when water or sewer infrastructure is in need of repair and
replacement. If we have the lines far enough apart in
addition to keeping contaminants far away from the water
supply, that better enables maintenance and repair work you
can get at 1 without interrupting the other.
Uh, the code requires that when possible Water and Sewer
structures must be separated by 10 feet, horizontally and
18 inches vertically.
So non-compliance with these standards in Chicago is sort
of a brief a brief history here in January of 2019. The
Department of Water Management. Discovered a location near
3500 North Cicero where water and sewer lines were too
close together that is to say out of compliance with the
standards.
Months later in March of 2019, a former city contractor who
had oversight responsibilities for design and installation
of of water. Mains completed, a limited audit of
potentially non-compliant locations, across the city that
audit found just over 6,300 6334 potentially non-compliant
locations. That is to say locations, where there, the water
and sewer lines might have been closer together than the
separation standards allowed. And the city reported those
audit findings to I iepa to the state regulatory agency.
in March of 2020, iepa sent a letter to the city, asking
that the city submit a work plan, which laid out the
following components, which would confirm compliance with
the separation standard, which would propose corrective
action, including the implementation timeline, for those
locations that were not in compliance, which would identify
and address post audit locations. That may be non-compliant
that is to say to impose A continuing, an ongoing reporting
obligation where additional non-compliant locations were
discovered in the course of other work.
And then finally, to ensure that future going sewer related
construction was was compliant with the standards.
In June of 2021, the city entered into an agreement with
iepa that over the following 5 years, the city would
undertake corrective actions at all non-compliant
locations, identified in that 2019 audit.
So, I mentioned this ongoing Discovery and reporting
obligation.
um,
a bit here. Sorry, a bit here about what that what that has
looked like. So as anticipated as contemplated their dwm
had identifies, May identify additional non-compliant
locations in the course of its regular work. This, of
course, from a detection perspective is complicated because
this is
This is under the streets of the city of Chicago. And so,
um,
certainly not certainly not in plain view um when dwm
discovered a non-compliant location. It adds that to the
list of those non-compliant locations, that is regularly
disclosed to iepa.
As of May of last year. So may of 2024, the Department of
Water Management had reported just over 12200, 1,24
non-compliant locations, most of those are identified in
the reporting as a range of blocks on a single street. So
for example, at 1 might be reported as on West Chicago
Avenue between North Central Park and Troy.
as of that same time, may of 2024, Department of Water,
reported to iepa that so far, um, those 1,24 locations have
required more than 77 miles of reconstruction, and more
than 338 miles of exploratory Drilling. And I will say, I
I'll come back to this in a moment. This is part of our
concern here that the remedial the exploratory, and the
remedial work which this non-compliance requires is really
disruptive in Chicago's neighborhoods. This leads to
streets being torn up and dust and noise and construction
and lack of access for
Long periods of time, unpredictable periods of time with
without a lot of information to people, living, and working
in those neighborhoods about what is happening, why it's
happening, how much it cost and how long it will go on.
Um,
measures of non-compliance that is to say, how far out of
compliance with the separation standards, these locations
were varies varies. Widely, in some cases, the
work was very close to satisfying requirements. That is to
say fell only a very little bit short of the mandatory
minimum separation in other places. There was no separation
at all, that is to say a water main or service line. In
fact crossed through sewer infrastructure directly no
separation at all.
Um, as of the Department of Water Management's, May 2024
disclosure to iepa, the status of work at these intrusions
ranged from under review, in some cases to emergency work.
Pending Construction in others. This is, um, this is not as
useful, a graphic here, as it is in larger form in the, in
the electronic report. But this is a map of the reported
non-compliant locations. I think at this limited level of
detail, I think the important observation is that these are
spread out all over, Chicago's 50 wards,
um,
this is kind of the central, the central finding or
determination of our inquiry, that inadequate separation of
water, manes, and Sewer lines does not necessarily pose in
acute safety risk to City residents, however, the city's
widespread non-compliance with water main and Sewer.
Separation standards May incur significant monetary and
quality of life costs.
And a lack of available public information, leaves, Chicago
and ill-prepared to mitigate any safety risk that might
arise, however, unlikely. Um, and, and part of the impetus
for our, Our concern here. As I say, really was a, a public
health, informed perspective on good, proactive,
information sharing, so that people can mitigate against.
Public health risks. This is the same sort of principle,
which leads us to circulate information about cold sea
during cold season, about the importance of handwashing.
Representatives from the Department of Water Management and
an independent expert affiliated with the standard setting
body that publishes the separation standards reported
clearly to oig that high water pressure. Mitigates the risk
of contaminants entering. The water means that is to say
the water. Again, I I'm you all have subject matter experts
here. I won't, I won't get in their way, but at a high
level, the just the notion here is that the fact that
drinking water in the water means is under high. Pressure
serves to keep contaminants out of out of the water main
the Department of Water, maintains water water main pressure
levels, which it says far exceed, the minimums required,
and a representative from water reported to us. That the
That the department, engages, in rigorous testing of the
city's water, supply, further, reducing the risk of
contamination. However
As some of, you know, because you have seen these events in
your Wards, depressurization events do occur. There are
situations where pressure fails, uh, in some part of the
city's water system. There have been multiple
depressurization events in recent years, um, and in a
situation where there is a depressurization event,
We have sort of lost a critical Safeguard against water
contamination, and it is under those circumstances that
compliance with the separation standards is critically
important.
a, a few notes on these depressurization events, so,
These are I think, the way to think about these is that
these are sort of infrequent, but potentially High
consequence events. So in in recent of these events, the
Department of Water Management has taken steps to notify
residents of the need to boil water. That is we, we the
city have identified, the potential of contamination in the
the event of depressurization and advised people to take
the precaution of boiling water before they consume it, to
make sure that it is safe for use.
Boil, water, boil orders, uh, help mitigate against the risk
of residents consuming potentially contaminated water, but
critically. And again, you all know this from your Wards,
uh, it can take hours at Best, for information about a boil
order to disseminate to Residents not. Every impacted
resident will necessarily learn of the boil order. And I
think really critically from my perspective not only
Will this information not reach everybody, and not reach
everybody quickly, but if we have done, no, kind of
foundational, public education, about what kinds of risks.
We are dealing with. Um, I'm not sure that we have equipped
Chicagoans well to make good use of that information when
when if and when they get it in terms of understanding and
mitigating against risks.
Um,
You know, there's an idea that we talk about investigative
work when we think about working with other investigating
agencies that you don't want to be exchanging business
cards on the scene of an emergency, I think the sort of
government information analogy here is we don't want our
first conversation with Chicagoans about safe, drinking
water and how to protect against risk to be when the water
pressure has failed.
Um so 1 example of a recent recent depressurization event
was in July of 2024 at the Rossland pumping station. There
was a leak.
Uh, which caused a drop in water pressure from approximately
7:30 p.m. until 11:00 p.m. in water mains, that served
certain of Chicago's neighborhoods, uh, parts of Beverly
Morgan Park and Auburn. Gresham, the Department of Water
issued, a boil order, but not until approximately 1:30 a.m.
so hours and hours after the situation arose, um, that
that order cautioned people in impacted areas to boil water
for at least 5 minutes before using it for drinking washing
dishes or brushing teeth now.
in the hours, which elapsed between the onset of the event,
and the issuance of that order, never mind it's reaching
people. But the issuance of that order, there are certainly
many many people in Beverly Morgan Park in Auburn Gresham
who drank water washed their dishes and brushed their
teeth.
Um, so having having talked a bit about what I think are
the kind of Public Health, inflected health and safety
concerns. I I mentioned kind of quality of life impact. So
we have received reports from stakeholders, regarding the
impact of this remedial work. The, the the construction
work being done to identify and to correct those locations
under Chicago Streets, where the water, uh, the Water means
in the sewer, lines are too close together. So that
corrective work, of course, as as with all construction,
Right? As, as you all know, know, best create significant
noise and dust requires additional and prolonged
construction work on city streets, above what, you know,
above the original work, which might have led to the
discovery of non-compliance that interrupts Street users
temporarily reduces parking. Impacts Street Scapes Etc.
Affected areas.
Um, multiple City water main contractors have reported.
Additionally, that coming into compliance with the
separation, standards might have a significant impact on
the city's tree. Canopy route. Obstructions are often a
barrier to constructing or often reported as a barrier to
to maintaining uh, separation.
Financial and legal impacts of this problem. Um, as of May
of 2024, the Department of Water Management reported that
its corrective work, at just over a 100 locations. So, a
fairly small percentage of of even those non-compliant
locations that have been identified, has come at a cost of
more than 9.7 million dollars.
The city has demanded that City contractors who built the
non-compliant work in the first place. Um, conduct
corrective work at their expense that has resulted in in
active litigation with the city.
1 water sewer 1, excuse me, 1 water main contractor has uh,
reported that corrective work, just on their projects alone
would cost more than 83 million.
Um, some of the costs of this corrective action may be
mitigated by the city's ongoing interactions with state
regulatory authorities, 1 of the people with whom, we spoke
explained that where the city has replaced water mains with
Castile, or ductile iron that is to say with different
water, main materials iepa has granted, the city, a
variance from the separation standards. That is to say,
there's been a determination by this regulatory body that
given the use of certain kinds of materials. Um,
Less separation than set out in the standards might be
appropriate. And so
The city's working with the regulatory authorities on.
Those May mitigate the costs of some of the corrective
work. Although given what we know about the the cost of
corrective action at about 100 locations. I think the the
potential piles of City dollars. That issue here. Remain
very, very large.
We also noted, um, in our advisory. Some concerns around
contractor management.
since the discovery uh, of widespread non-compliance with
the title, 35 separate standards. The Department of Water
Management has restructured its water main construction
program before 2023 dwm, contracted a single entity that is
CTR to function as both a project manager and a
construction manager for City water main construction. Uh,
in that capacity that contractor was responsible for water,
main design Information, Technology work, document
retention Etc. And as construction manager was responsible
for overseeing, the people physically doing the work on the
water mains, and confirming, that the work was properly
done as designed.
Um, between the years of 2013 and 2023 that contractor was
paid more than 288 million.
Um again apologies for a very dense slide here. I'll try to
move through this quickly uh a couple, a few notes here
about kind of the Cities ongoing historical and ongoing
insight into and oversight of these issues as they have as
they arise and continue to come to light.
CTR that that contractor. We talked about their contract,
required them to maintain what are called as built drawings
of of water main work, that is to say, drawings, which
reflected the actual built condition.
Underground. Um, a complete set of these. As built drawings
would have allowed the Department of Water Management to
review them for separation. Um,
however uh, it was reported to us that after the the
separation of the non-compliance issues arose, the
Department of Water Management discovered that there were
no as built drawings for many many projects that is to say
the city had not ever received these drawings, which would
accurately show the the as-built conditions underground. Um
that made it that condition made it impossible to audit the
precise extent of non-compliance without digging up the
streets, under which these lines are located.
Contributing to the the broad disruption around
exploratory, work that we talked about a few minutes ago.
The same person with whom. We spoke reported inadequate,
what they described as inadequate, management, and
oversight of that City Contractor. We were told that there
was very little oversight of the contractor by Department
of Water Management.
Department of Water management management. Uh and that CTR
was not held accountable to specific metrics or performance
goals. It was reported to oig that dwm discovered, the
non-compliance issue. Um, excuse me, that after dwm
discovered the non-compliance issue, the oversight
challenges in contractor management were exacerbated, um,
by disengaging with the contractor, who had been doing the
work for some time.
um,
despite that contractor's continuing to manage the city's
water, main construction program for for 4 years after the
non-compliance came to light
Um, this resulted in what?
1, 1 person. We spoke with describing as the Department of
Water Management lacking a line of sight into what this
contractor was working on. Despite the city's continuing to
to write very large checks to that contractor over over
many years tens of millions of dollars.
Um, in 2023, after the expiration of that contract at
issue. Dwm, contracted with 2 separate joint. Ventures to
perform further program, management, and construction,
management around water mains, um, with a dedicated
construction manager to add a level of review to ensure the
construction is completed properly. Um, in addition to the,
the monitoring of the construction work,
So um, I appreciate everyone's patience here. The our
recommendation in our in our advisory letter is here. We
said that in the interest of transparency and
accountability, the Department of Water Management, should
increase and improve the information available to the
public and to members of city council about this issue,
including by providing updates on the city's progress,
toward compliance with iepa water, sewer, separation
standards, and on steps the dwm is taking to avoid this
issue. Recurring, additionally dwm should coordinate with
relevant City, departments to provide accessible, proactive
public education on how City residents should respond in
the event of a water main depressurization event in order
to avoid health and safety risks. This is particularly
important because of the time it takes for dwm to
communicate to City residents, about the need to boil their
water in the event of a water main depressurization. And
so, I will just say again, I, this is from my perspective,
this is a transparency, motivated recommendation where in
light of the scale of a very large, very messy, very
expensive problem. Um,
Chicagoans are entitled to good and clear information about
what that problem looks like, how much of their tax
dollars, it will cost to fix it. What? Sorts of disruptions
in their daily lives? They should anticipate while that
corrective action is being taken and what sort of safety
risks. There might be particularly to families with, with
people who are Health vulnerable, for example, and what
steps they can take to to protect themselves and their
families, the department of waters obviously here to
discuss their response in more detail. I will just note
that in the response from Department of Water Management
that we published alongside our inquiry.
Dwm airmed that the city's water supply is safe and and
provides in that letter, which again we've published um
information on and context around the city's water safety
practices on an ongoing basis.
Dwm further notes. As I as we have here, dwm agrees that
additional public Outreach and education is appropriate
where in actual safety risk to Chicagoans exists. However,
The Department of Water Management reports where
comprehensive monitoring, indicates that? No such risk is
present and where residents do not need to take any action
such elevated Communications. May dilute the desired impact
of City Communications. When there is a confirmed risk and
action by residents is actually needed for example, during
boil orders.
My continuing concern here. Um, is that I
I disagree that that more and better public information
serves to dilute future communications. I, I don't think
that that transparent government serves to dilute
government messaging. I think it gives people a reason to
believe what they're told.
And so, so that continues to be our call here that there be
more and higher quality public information available and a
more proactive effort to educate Chicagoans about this
problem and the city's ongoing efforts to remediate it.
Thank you, chair.
Thank you. Um we'll now turn things over uh to our
representatives from dwm. If you could identify yourselves
before you speak for deputy and also want to just remind
colleagues that because there is active litigation underway
involving this issue. There may be certain things that
cannot be shared at all or can't be shared publicly. Uh,
dwm, will note, when that's the case. Uh, but we'll all
make sure that they can share in the most appropriate ways.
Possible as much information and response to our questions.
So, with that first deputy
Uh, good morning everybody. My name is Joel Vieira. I'm the
first Deputy Commissioner in the Department of Water
Management.
Good morning. My name is Hans Krueger. I'm the chief water
engineer for water management.
So, uh, good morning chairman, Martin members of the
committee on ethics and government oversight.
Um, as I mentioned, I'm Joel Viera first. Deputy hands
Krueger is the chief water engineer for the city. Uh, we
thank you this committee and the Inspector General for the
opportunity, uh, to provide a response to the issues raised
by the advisory
The delivery of safe. Drinking water is the core mission of
the Department of Water Management and the Cornerstone of
our operations? Dwm takes this public responsibility. Very
seriously.
Our water system is the safest water supply in the country.
We consistently meet or exceed any water, safety
regulations, and standards.
With over 4,500 miles, of water, mains, 2 of the largest
purification plants in the world. 12 pumping stations, and
about a million physical assets. The 2000 women and men of
the Department of Water Management, commit themselves each
and every day to providing safe drinking water to the
public.
Dwm employees, professional traits persons, engineers, and
scientists committed to the delivery of safe. Drinking
water.
We encourage the community members to read the advisory and
the dwm response in its entirety. We will however,
highlight some of the more Salient aspects of our response.
Testing uh dwm has the largest and most robust water
testing system in the Midwest.
We continuously taste uh, test the safety of our drinking
water throughout the system.
A water pressure, uh, we maintain our system water pressure
at high levels to help ensure that any harmful contaminants
are kept out of the system.
this pressurization starts at the pumping stations is
carried uh, from there to our large feeder Mains, and then
to the water mains on our streets and eventually into our
homes,
System monitoring, we monitor system, water pressure and
system leaks at all times using both the industry,
standard, supervisory, control, and data acquisition system
or SCA
And through the use of a consultant that performs
comprehensive field, leak, detections.
CIP program, uh, using data Sound Engineering and a
commitment to infrastructure Investments. We have developed
a robust
Water main capital Improvement program or CIP.
uh, since the year 2000 dwm, has eliminated, substantial
water main weaknesses as a result. We daily pump over. 250
million gallons of water less today for Chicago than we did
in the year 2000. That's a reduction of about 39%.
All contracts for CIP work, require a full compliance with
all applicable laws.
And since 2023 the program management of our water, main
CIP is contractually separate from our CIP construction
management.
Um, expeditious repairs.
When issues that impact water infrastructure identified,
those repairs are addressed quickly and methodically dwm is
the largest construction company in the Midwest.
We have the staff and the commitment to perform the repairs
expeditiously expeditiously.
Uh, boil order. Protocols on rare occasions dwm, does issue
boil orders to enable dwm Crews to address leaks
Replacements and other issues that could potentially impact
water quality.
Our boil orders follow established protocols, all of our
water sampling, following boil orders is sent to the ieepa.
With respect to iepa, we have an established partnership
with them. Iepa provides dwm with authority to manage the
Chicago water system. Um, tissue construction permits under
what is called the delegate agreement?
As required by the delegate agreement, our water main
designs comply with the design, uh, with the standard
specifications for water and sewer main Construction in
Illinois, and with the American Waterworks Association
standards. All new infrastructure, installation and repairs
are performed in full compliance with iepa water and sewer
main separation standards.
System redundancies.
When separation standards are not met. Our water system,
has the structural design detection, repair and testing
redundancies to ensure that the water system remains safe.
In addition, when these issues do arise, they are reported
IPA and dwm develops. A corrective uh, work plan to address
these matters.
um, all of the information that's developed by dwm with
iepa is publicly available, if requested,
Um, as we note in our response to the advisory, our
drinking water is safe and Chicagoans can rely on it. As
residents, we do not need to take any additional steps to
ensure access to safe drinking water. Thank you.
Thank you. Um, we will begin questions with Alderman. Spas
followed by Alderman, OSHA when he returns.
Oh, and and uh just 1 second Alderman Wags. Back. Is there
something we can do with the screens?
uh, Inspector General did, uh,
Could you go back on your screen about 4 or 5? It was 1
before CTR. Maybe yeah 1 more.
um,
that's fine. Thank, thank you. Chairman
Thank you, first. Deputy always a pleasure to see you,
happy St. Joseph's day also.
I have a question backtracking a little uh Inspector
General. We mentioned about the water department. Not
communicating well enough and I may have mixed up my AMS
and PMs, but I thought, I thought it said 11 pm to 1:30 am
about, not communicating about the boil order was that, was
was it 11 pm to 1:30 am, or was it 11 am to 1:30 PM?
Because my experience with the water department has been
the exact opposite, um, as far as Communications we have
emergencies and stuff like that. So I'm just I'm just I
mean, I don't see what the big deal is. Uh, okay. It was 11
p.m. so at 11:00 at night to 1:30 in the morning, I mean,
what 7:30, 7:30 at night, uh, was when the event began,
okay? Uh, and then until 1:30 in the morning and I and I
agree with you. It's not, that's not days on end. I think
the concern here is, um, that
These are large and well populated areas of the city.
They're certain were people in Beverly Morgan Park in
Auburn Gresham who brushed their teeth and washed their
dishes between 7:30 and night and 1:30 in the morning,
right? But, but what, how are they supposed to handle it?
Are they supposed to go down the street with a megahorn and
they knock on the doors? How are? Uh, first? Deputy I mean,
how how do you, how do you handle something like that? If
there's a boil or it doesn't do any good to put flyers on
the door because nobody's going to see them. So they
actually,
Back on the doors or you go down the street with a mega horn
and say, boil your water, or how do we do that.
so, for boil orders, um,
I think there's 2 types of boilers. There's this type of
boil, loader, that was, um, for Roseland.
Uh, which involve which impacted large numbers of people,
but the overwhelming majority of the boil orders are
relegated to much, much smaller segments. So, for example,
we're doing work on an individual block.
Or we're doing work on an individual home. And that
instance, our experience has been that the best method of
communication with the residents is to post a notice on
people's doors. That gives them Specific Instructions on
what, uh, we are doing, um, and What the residents, um,
should do, uh, to take into account, what, um, we're
working on for large events like, uh, uh, the situation
that happened. It Rossland, um, in that situation, uh, we,
uh, asked that oemc help us with that. Um, and so what oemc
did, um, for the Rossland situation was that, um, they were
able to geolocate the impacted residents and they sent a
text message to impacted residents who've got cell phones.
Alderman if I could just add quickly to that if that's okay.
I part of our observation here is that those efforts to
to transmit and spread public information would be more
effective if we had provided people with some proactive
public education. Again, I use the kind of Public Health
example, around cold season at the beginning of cold
season, right? We see Public Health messaging out there
reminding people to wash their hands and with information
about how germs spread it is that sort of foundational
proactive Public Health driven information which equips
people to understand risk and to easily and quickly,
accommodate information when they get it. I I think there's
maybe a fundamental question here about whether there is
any situation in city government where Chicagoans are
better off with less information. I'm inclined to think
not.
All right, thank you. Yeah. I just it it didn't seem like a
real issue to me, so I just was looking for a clarification
on that. I know there is a difference between small
emergencies and big emergencies, so but I appreciate the
clarification. Thank you, thank you both. Thank you,
chairman, thank you Alderman. Noe
Thank you, chairman.
um,
I'm reminded by what we're talking about here in uh
certainly uh,
Joel you and I have talked about this. I've spent uh, a lot
of time talking
To Randy Conner. And Matt Quinn. Um this reminds me of how
important it is that we continue to invest in our
infrastructure uh
Joel helped me out here. I believe we have 12 pumping
stations across our city, correct. Um, and the majority of
those are old. Um,
we're talking here in the last few minutes about Rossland.
Uh, it's more than 100 years old, uh, much of the equipment
in and out of there. Uh, if not original is pretty close to
being original.
Um,
and is anybody knows when something breaks it's that old uh
Parts aren't easily accessible. Um,
We have to continue to invest in our infrastructure.
Whether that be the pumping stations themselves, or the
tens of thousands of, of, of miles of pipe. We have across
our city, um, in, in this particular instance, um, I
appreciate the fact that overnight
Uh, commissioner Connor himself was there at the station
all night long with the crews. Um,
I would describe that as a victory and that, uh,
Certainly, nobody was hurt, uh, inside the station itself,
uh, because it ladies and gentlemen, it was an explosion.
It was, it was, it was steel and metal, uh, shrapnel.
Several stories high in the pumping station. Have you ever
been in 1 of those pumping stations? Um,
And and nobody was hurt, uh, in the communities that
receive uh water uh majority of which uh I represent. Um,
but I I think it's important to note that uh each and every
1 of us, particularly when we're talking uh, during budget
budget season that we are talking about investing in our
infrastructure, uh, critical infrastructure, uh,
particularly our pumping stations and our pipes. And um,
Moving forward when we do have situations like this. I
think it's also incumbent upon us as Alderman that we're
engaged when these things happen. Uh we need to engage with
with the Department of Water Management with oemc and such
to get that information out as as as quickly as we can.
um,
And so I had thanks, great. Thank you alderman waguespack.
Thanks chairman. Uh, thank you all for being here. Um,
So, just reading through this and, um, taking a look back at
the document that was produced here. So, 100% of the work
was done by CTR.
Or a contractors of CTR.
Yes. Okay. And then was any percentage of the crossover
crisscrossing from other entities like,
You know, we have a development that goes in and a
developer comes in and opens up the street was any of that
caused by that type of activity, turn it over to Hans with
your permission. No? Okay, no. So so I think what you're
hitting at is did a private developer project.
Result in water, man, and Sewer installation that is
non-compliant.
Yeah. That led to yeah. So that yeah, that that didn't
happen that larger number. Yeah. Okay. That did not happen
and then um. What is the what is the separation for
Illinois? Recommended.
So, for uh, for California's like 10 feet for a parallel.
Uh, yeah. So so yeah. So for the
Water sewer, separation requirements in the State. Illinois
requires that a water Mane. Must be installed in parallel
instances, 10 ft away from a sewer Main
and when you cannot achieve, 10 feet,
Then you need to have 18 inches from the bottom of the
water main to the top of the sewer.
So there's those are in parallel situations. If you cannot
achieve, the 18 inches, then you can go ahead and replace
the sewer along with the water main and the sewer main can
be replaced with a water main quality pipe. So typically in
the city of Chicago, we do duct the iron replacement of
sewers.
So that's for parallel installation. So at Crossings we in
an Ideal World. We like to have a water man crossing over
the top of a sewer Main
And if we have 18 inches between the bottom of the water
Mane and the top of the sewer main we're good.
Once we lose the vertical, and we're less than 18 inches,
then that's when we have to, typically replace the sewer
main, uh, with the water main quality pipe, typically
ductile iron, and that runs for 10 feet, either side of the
Crossing,
now if you install the water main under the sewer, then you
you have to maintain your 18 inches from the bottom of the
sewer to the top of the water main and the sewer main also
has to be replaced with ductile iron 10 ft of either side
of the crossing, I'm sorry, what was that last part? Uh, it
has the sewer main has to be replaced with ductile iron or
water main quality pipe and that again is 10 feet, either
side of the crossing. Okay,
and that's, um,
just reading into this, that's I think where maybe CTR was
kind of
Not hitting those numbers.
Or maybe that's in litigation.
Just hold it at that. I'll I'll keep it there but it's
very, it's a very interesting report. I think what Alderman
OSHA hits on too is, you know, when
We're all having sewer and water main work going on
constantly I think when the city Crews come out they do an
excellent job. Um,
You know Mr. Buyer said that dwm is the I think the largest
water contractor in Illinois if not the Midwest. Um and
that seems to be the ca you know when we're sitting there
dealing with these water manes sewer Mains you've been out
there personally talking about the details of how these
work and I I really appreciate that and hopefully with this
we can get to a point where you know, the taxpayers aren't.
Um
uh,
Totally picking up the bill for this but um, obviously
that's something Beyond both of your uh level of pay.
But um, appreciate you guys coming in and talking through
that. And thank you for the technical aspect too. When you
when I see the workers out there in the pits doing those
pipes, doing those, it's very complicated and you know, you
never know what it's like an old house. You never know what
you're going to get when you open up the, uh, street. So
Naturally. It's, uh, very difficult work but hopefully
we'll get going in the right direction. Thank you very
much. That was good. Thank you chairman. Thank you
Alderman. Um I have a few questions myself 1 is I believe.
Um General you mentioned in 1 of your slides that in 2021
June. Um the city and iepa uh entered into some sort of
agreement or understanding where over the next 5 years. Um,
the city would come into compliance. Um,
For Deputy, if you can share a little bit more specificity
about that. And with that 5-year period, uh, ending
mid-year next year in 2026. How's the department? Looking
at the moment?
So I'll chairman that's the standard delegate agreement
that we have with Illinois APA, get her news. Every 5 years
if with your permission I'll turn it back over to Hans who
can maybe can provide some additional detail on that.
Uh yeah. So so our our delegate agreement with IPA um
obviously requires us to design all water mains to meet.
Uh, water sewer, separation requirements.
so, um,
You know, so as part of that agreement there every year, we
provide them with a report. So as part of that report, um,
we provide them with, uh,
our water main record drawings that were, you know, for
water wings, that were replaced that year, uh, we replied
them provide them with all construction operating permits.
We provide them with our, uh, well actually, I'm sorry, we
provide them, with our construction, permits, our operating
permits, uh, we provide them with
Our proposed Capital Improvement program for the following
year. Uh, we provide them with
numbers of locations where we've performed.
Corrective work.
uh, and then we provide them with other other information
with respect to population, served and things of that
nature based on, um, the limits of the water main project
for the following Capital Improvement year,
at this point, do you have a timeline however, approximate
where you anticipate for the
Thousand plus uh, areas of potential non-compliance that uh
uh, there will be, you'll you'll finish up with your
inspections and where necessary um, the the work related to
bringing it into compliance.
we we do not have a timeline unfortunately with the water
main pass water main projects, that's we've provided to IPA
being non-compliant.
we don't have a firm set of numbers because a a lot of that
information we we we can't put numbers to it until we do a
deeper dive and and we also may have to excavate to define
a scope of what actually needs to be done to bring the
particular location into compliance.
Okay. Um, I don't know if this is a through their quick
chair request to you general, or to Water Management. So
I'll start with you generally. I think you'd mentioned that
there were at least 39 instances in which a city water
Manor, sewer line. In fact crossed through service Landing,
excuse me, cross through sewer infrastructure. Um did is
does that sound
Correct. And if so could you provide that list through the
chair that you were working from? Um,
We certainly can provide the information we have, I will
say, it may be sort of derivative of information that's
available to water. I I would defer to water whether that
they have, so let me, let me take. So, so there's a couple
things that go on here. So,
um, we we have a there's a non-compliance
Factor that we're talking about, but, um, maybe I could
provide an example of just what's happened, and then how
these pop up. So 1 that pops into my head. I won't give
the, I won't give the exact location, but imagine a water
man. 6 inch water man was installed in 1894.
And then at a later at the same location, 6 years later, 36
inch Brick Store was installed at the same elevation. So
prior to regulations being developed they just installed
the sewer around the water main
So then Factor in 2012 20112012 when not only did the water
main replacement program accelerate but the sewer lining
program accelerated
Well, that results in more televising of sewer mains.
so,
We came across, we use the term unknown utilities, going
through sewer mains.
And then we have to do an analysis to determine what the
utility is and say from a water main perspective, is it an
active?
Waterline or sewer service. Is it abandoned? Or maybe, maybe
maybe it's not a water facility at all. So we'll go through
that analysis and over that rung.
We yeah, probably 39 locations. And when they come up, we
prioritize them extremely high and address and
You know if it's a live Active water service or Bain we
address, I can get out of, get it out of the sewer man.
I think it would be helpful to have a list in whatever
company in detail Water. Management Fields is appropriate,
coming through the chair. So that across our various
communities, we can take a look to see which ones come into
our award. Keep it in mind with our annual CIP briefings,
as well as just be mindful that. Hey, this is an area where
maybe there's subsequent conversations that are needed if
and when work is happening. And so to just know that there
are potential hotspots that we need to be sensitive to and
again like I I recognized that completely that upon further
further inspection. It might not sound as concerning as uh,
initially but still, I think it would be helpful to have
that record so that we know where there are some
priorities. Um, last question on my end is, um, I I believe
that the inspector General had mentioned that, uh, the city
has spent upwards of 10 million dollars to bring a 100 plus
areas.
To compliance, um, uh, following um, the 2019 related work,
what's the funding source or sources for that work?
Uh, um, our funding comes from a variety of sources, uh,
typically we rely on uh depending on the project, it's
either going to be water bonds.
Sewer bonds, uh, we also have some operating, um, Bond, uh,
operating, uh, uh, uh, allocations that we utilize. In
addition, we also, um, utilize what's called po, uh, either
on the sewer or the water side. Every project is going to
be a little different. Um, and if there are some lead
service line impacts, which happens from time to time, uh,
we also use Geo bonds for the private side of the lead
service line replacement noted um through the chair and at
your convenience if you can provide a more detailed
breakdown um and and I recognize that maybe it's only up to
a particular year, because this stuff is, you know,
happening in real time. I'd be interested to see the
breakdown, um, especially with Alderman OSHA's point is, we
had into budget season, we always want to be sensitive to
core infrastructure. Work be quite helpful to understand
the breakdown there. Um, especially with recent
conversations and debates around Geo Bonds in particular.
So thank you.
You in advance for that. Um, I don't have any other
questions, so, uh, I think they're being no further
business. Can I get a motion to adjourn this committee?
Alderman. OSHA so moves all those in favor saying bye. Bye
saying. I all those opposed say no in the opinion of the
chairs, the eyes have it. The meeting is adjourned. Thank
you all very much for your work. Thank you very much.